.416 Bullets: Woodleigh, Swift or North Fork?

[PHOENIX PHIL]

the logical best medium between the solid lead bullet and the solid copper/brass bullet is the dual core lead bullet. this brings out the Nosler partition and the Swift A-frame. for heavy game the A-frame is the better choice between the two as it holds its weight better then the partition. but then again even the mighty A-frame can fail. the A-frame can suffer from a similar problem as the mono-metal bullets, it can fail to fully expand at low velocities. in general i personally wouldnt recommend running a Swift A-frame any slower then 2300fps or you risk less then full expansion.

-matt

Does it need to be a dual core lead bullet? Aren't the NF bonded cores essentially the same as an A-Frame in performance?

 

[matt85]

true, both the North Fork SS bullet and the Federal TBBC bullet would also fall into the dual core category and work VERY well.

-matt

 

[JWB300]

Barnes are made from a Copper alloy, and are thus much, much harder than a bullet such as GS Custom, which is made from 100% copper. The fact that the GS Custom bullets are 100% copper means that they are softer and enables them to open up at much lower velocities. It is also the design of the bullet that allows us to launch them at unheard of velocities. ( 3200fps from a .375H&H?)
Saying this, bare in mind that GS Custom are all light for caliber bullets. This is one of the reasons I don't use them in the Rigby for backup on dangerous game.(Report to come shortly on bullets used in the Rigby and their performance) This is simply due to the fact that, because the projectiles are made from 100% copper, they have no lead to increase the weight, and in order for the weight to be achieved, the bullet will simply be too long.

Marius,

I'm pretty sure the Barnes TSX and TTSX are 100% copper - the Hornady GMX is an alloy and is harder.

Cheers,
JWB300

 

[matt85]

Barnes claims their TSX is "all copper" but im not sure i believe it. im pretty sure its a copper alloy of some kind.

-matt

 

[JWB300]

Everything I've ever seen published about them claims 100% copper and I don't see why they would lie about it?

 

[matt85]

i havent seen them claim "100% copper" only "all copper" and in this country those are two very different things. them being a copper alloy isnt exactly a problem though, i use Barnes bullets in my 416 RM and love them! as to why they might be misleading... for the purpose of increasing sales would be my best guess.

-matt

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Marius,

I'm pretty sure the Barnes TSX and TTSX are 100% copper - the Hornady GMX is an alloy and is harder.

Cheers,
JWB300

So, why do we hear many claims that Barnes did not open, and the problem of excessive fouling with the Barnes bullets. It's because they are harder than any other bullet. Why are they so much harder than "other" 100% copper bullets. Just how does Barnes get 180gr into a .30 Cal bullet, and be way shorter in length than lets say the 177gr from GS Custom? I'm not disputing the quality of Barnes, I think they are one of the best bullets on the market, and you can't go wrong using them, but Barnes and GSC should not be classed together in the same category.

@Velo Dog , I agree with everything that you are saying, and do not for one second question Doctari. GS Custom is NOT the same as Barnes, and cannot for one second be compared to them. Therefore, they cannot be grouped into the same set of rules as you listed above.

 

[JWB300]

So, why do we hear many claims that Barnes did not open, and the problem of excessive fouling with the Barnes bullets. It's because they are harder than any other bullet. Why are they so much harder than "other" 100% copper bullets. Just how does Barnes get 180gr into a .30 Cal bullet, and be way shorter in length than lets say the 177gr from GS Custom? I'm not disputing the quality of Barnes, I think they are one of the best bullets on the market, and you can't go wrong using them, but Barnes and GSC should not be classed together in the same category.

Marius,

I certainly haven't experienced the issues you have mentioned. I haven't seen any definitive evidence that they are any harder than any other monometal projectile. If you have some I would be interested to see it.

Can't say I've used a GS so can't comment on the length or performance - they sound like a good thing though. I don't dispute that the GS are great and nor did I ever try to compare the two. I simply stated that I believe that the Barnes are 100% copper from what I've read but some have stated that they aren't without any evidence to the contrary...

Here is a .375 270gr TSX from a water buff from last week. If this isn't satisfactory performance you will never be satisfied.

 

[JWB300]

i havent seen them claim "100% copper" only "all copper" and in this country those are two very different things. them being a copper alloy isnt exactly a problem though, i use Barnes bullets in my 416 RM and love them! as to why they might be misleading... for the purpose of increasing sales would be my best guess.

-matt

Matt - you are right they do claim all copper. Interesting point that this may not mean 100% copper but certainly in my books 'all' means '100%'. I don't see why they would be deceptive about the composition - as you say regardless of the composition they perform better than any projectile I've ever used. Ultimately performance is all that counts - not marketing.

 

[petrusg]

Look at the performance we are getting on Peregrine:

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/peregrine-vrg3-bushmaster-rsa-manufactured-bullet.23063/

 

[JWB300]

Look at the performance we are getting on Peregrine:

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/peregrine-vrg3-bushmaster-rsa-manufactured-bullet.23063/

They look pretty good. I'm keen to try them. Just a matter of getting them in Aus... Easier said than done.

 

[matt85]

Matt - you are right they do claim all copper. Interesting point that this may not mean 100% copper but certainly in my books 'all' means '100%'. I don't see why they would be deceptive about the composition - as you say regardless of the composition they perform better than any projectile I've ever used. Ultimately performance is all that counts - not marketing.

in the USA its common practice to use terms that are deceptive. for example when you go to a fast food restaurant and they tell you the hamburger is "all beef" or just "a beef paddy" its probably not made entirely of beef. but by law if they tell you something is "100%" then it must be made entirely out of that substance (or at least close). another example Is "light beer" and "lite beer" these are not the same thing. one is light in color and the other is reduced calorie but both will try and pass for reduced calorie.

when someone says its "all copper" then it could be made entirely of a copper alloy and by our laws still be "all copper" because a copper alloy could still be considered copper. but if they say its "100% copper" or "pure copper" then they are bound by law to have the product be made entirely of pure copper. I live in a country run by lawyers and from time to time its glaringly obvious.

I actually sent Barnes a message yesterday asking them if their bullets were truly 100% copper because this thread has made me curious.

I love Barnes bullets regardless of what they are made from! here is pictures of a 300gr .416" TSX that was pulled from my blue wildebeest:



-matt

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

@JWB300 ,

James,
Sorry, I got mixed up between your quote and Velo, trying to stipulate that the two bullets should not be compared. Don't dispute that Barnes are top, top quality.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

@matt85 ,
What velocity are you getting with the 300gr'ers out of the .416?

 

[matt85]

im getting a hair over 2650fps with the 300gr TSX from my 416 RM. you could get more but accuracy starts to drop off.

-matt

 

[JWB300]

No worries Marius @KMG Hunting Safaris

@matt85 - did you hear back from Barnes - I'm curious to know what they say.

I just watched a Barnes promo dvd that I have here - in it they do claim 100% copper as well as 'all copper'.

 

[matt85]

no response yet, ill post when i hear from them.

-matt

 

[matt85]

here is the response i got back from Barnes:

Matt,

They are pure copper.

Thanks

Ryan Banks | Tech Support/Consumer ServiceBarnes Bullets

i guess i was wrong, funny i was sure they were a copper alloy.

-matt

 

[Beans]

I have loaded Barnes TSX and Swift A Frames in the 416 Rigby.

To me those are the top performing bullets when it comes to dangerous game.

I have used them on lion, buff and hippo. Have never been let down by them.

 

[Desperatezulu]

the logical best medium between the solid lead bullet and the solid copper/brass bullet is the dual core lead bullet. this brings out the Nosler partition and the Swift A-frame. for heavy game the A-frame is the better choice between the two as it holds its weight better then the partition. but then again even the mighty A-frame can fail. the A-frame can suffer from a similar problem as the mono-metal bullets, it can fail to fully expand at low velocities. in general i personally wouldnt recommend running a Swift A-frame any slower then 2300fps or you risk less then full expansion.

-matt

Hi Matt, your closing sentence is a little surprising - would you mind expanding on why you recommend running A-Frames >2300f/s in 416? Not to be argumentative but Swift themselves say the following (I quote from their website):

Heavy rifle A-Frame bullets are for use on dangerous game. The bullet initiates expansion at 1650 feet per second on the low end and stays together at 3000+ feet per second on the high end.

Perhaps you're mixing experience of the regular 'rifle bullets' with the 'heavy rifle bullets' in Swift's terminology? The regular bullets seem to require a higher impact velocity.
Or I may be misunderstanding your full expansion with my idea of acceptable expansion (corresponding to the picture of expansion @ 1950f/s on their website), admittedly based on a bunch of pictures on the internet.

I have no experience (yet!) of A-Frame in DG but plan to change that in the next month, hence my interest!