404 Jeffrey - Oh Boy, another project!

[Riflecrank]

By golly, not a .416 Tatanka.
Looks like a .416/404 Jeffery unadulterated.
Very nice.
Is it like a .416 Haugh ?

 

[Rez Exelon]

Not sure... This is all new to me. However I will say the pendulum of fate might be swinging a bit. I loaded up the sizing die and ran two cases through and both have come out with no changes to them that I can see or measure. Case neck ID of .418 going in and coming out and I can put the expanders balls and bullets in by hand. I've not had a dieset not seem to resize the neck before. I wonder if there was another die I am missing.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Well... If you don't handload, then Hornady is the only source of factory loaded ammunition that's reasonably available on the market.

From the custom loaded spectrum, Hendershots or Superior Ammo would be more than happy to accommodate you.

Lots of bullet options is you hand load.

This is of course, assuming that you have a .404 JEffery and not some wildcat.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Well... If you don't handload, then Hornady is the only source of factory loaded ammunition that's reasonably available on the market.

From the custom loaded spectrum, Hendershots or Superior Ammo would be more than happy to accommodate you.

Lots of bullet options is you hand load.

This is of course, assuming that you have a .404 JEffery and not some wildcat.

Based on the brass measurements and markings it is indeed a wildcat --- basically a 404 Jeffery case necked down to take .416 bullets. Which is fine since i got dies --- except for the fact that the dies don't seem to be sizing the necks correctly as they are still at .418 after sizing /sigh/

 

[CoElkHunter]

Based on the brass measurements and markings it is indeed a wildcat --- basically a 404 Jeffery case necked down to take .416 bullets. Which is fine since i got dies --- except for the fact that the dies don't seem to be sizing the necks correctly as they are still at .418 after sizing /sigh/

What does the sizing die have imprinted on it? Maybe it’s a standard 404J die?

 

[Rez Exelon]

Negative... It is specifically marked as 416/404

 

[Riflecrank]

Have you tried sizing the brass with the neck-expander button removed ?
If the Inside Diameter of the sized brass neck is 0.418", that is weird for sure, unless CH4D custom made the die for a different make of brass that had thicker neck wall.
Just guessing, but that does not explain why you have two expander buttons of same diameter.
20 pieces of RWS 404 Jeffery brass is all you have ?

 

[Riflecrank]

Try running the brass into a .416 Rigby die to neck size only.
That might get you shooting.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Have you tried sizing the brass with the neck-expander button removed ?
If the Inside Diameter of the sized brass neck is 0.418", that is weird for sure, unless CH4D custom made the die for a different make of brass that had thicker neck wall.
Just guessing, but that does not explain why you have two expander buttons of same diameter.
20 pieces of RWS 404 Jeffery brass is all you have ?

My actual first test was without the expander. The rws is all I have and was primed so I decided to just run two pieces without either expander in it and then measure.

Judging from the notes it was used, with the rifle, so it's very odd that it's not setting. There were also two bullets missing from the box making at least a small case that they were used. But I checked against some 426 cal woodleighs and they definitely just go in/out under hand pressure too.

I reached out to Ch4d last night to see if they have any thoughts. I mean, worst case is a new die but that would be 12-18months from them, or I have to order from Whidden or another option. Not sure I super like that idea since they all require a reamer print of three fired casings and these 20 are now slightly suspect as fired cases.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Try running the brass into a .416 Rigby die to neck size only.
That might get you shooting.

That is entirely possible as I do have a set of those. I thought of that but then just have to be careful how to set the die to not bump other dimensions I suppose.

 

[Riflecrank]

Great, you have the proper neck sizing die.
With the longer neck and lower shoulder on your wildcat
a .416 Rigby FL die should be perfect, unless the brass is "funny."
Maybe the brass was acquired by a later buyer, different from what the original owner was using.
Maybe you will overcome a problem that made the last owner think this silk purse was a sow's ear.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Great, you have the proper neck sizing die.
With the longer neck and lower shoulder on your wildcat
a .416 Rigby FL die should be perfect, unless the brass is "funny."
Maybe the brass was acquired by a later buyer, different from what the original owner was using.
Maybe you will overcome a problem that made the last owner think this silk purse was a sow's ear.

Exactly why I included it as a project in the title

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Looks like the stock was originally for another action that had trigger block safety on side of receiver. Note the glob of epoxy to fill that cavity. Myers sells 3-position Model 70 style safeties for 1917 but they are pricey. Includes new shroud and striker/firing pin. I'm sure Timney sells trigger with safety that would fill that void nicely if epoxy is removed.

Necking 404 down to 416 bullet will provide a bit more shoulder which should be good thing. Head space is less critical. Still, you need to be careful setting up your dies so shoulder fits the chamber exactly. I now only neck size my 404 cases and cycle check each loaded round before putting them in the box. With that gentle 404 shoulder it's easy to push a round into chamber without claw fully snapping over on the rim if sizing isn't perfect.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

That is entirely possible as I do have a set of those. I thought of that but then just have to be careful how to set the die to not bump other dimensions I suppose.

Be forewarned the RWS brass that I purchased was SHORT in length. All of them. Check yours carefully. I set my dies up for the short brass and wound up pushing the shoulder back enough that cartridges would not snap over reliably.

 

[RR 314]

IT! WAS! THE! MOTHERLOAD!!!!!

So, the first bit of mystery answered in that it was worth the wait for the 3 boxes. The contents were shipped as follows:

Box 17# - The very well packaged rifle buried in packing peanuts and such.
Box 10# - Plano Airglide Rifle case. Also well wrapped. Little overkill for a, well, case, but it is what it is.
Box 5# - 20 pieces of brass and a box of Barnes .416 Hotcor 350gr.

OH I"M SORRY! DID I FORGET TO MENTION THE CH4D DIES THAT CAME IN THE FIRST BOX???

Oh man, that was a relief!!!! I have NO idea why the auction house would not have included the information that they were included in the listing, but in this case I suppose I took a chance on the rifle and got lucky. If it was noted as having dies and brass I'm fairly sure other people would have bid on it.

So after investigating, I know a lot more about the rifle itself.
* Caliber really is 416/404JEF. So it's a 404 piece of brass, necked down to a 416 projectile. Dies and barrel are marked as a matching set. I'll get pictures up later, but the set of dies actually included 2 different types of expanders. I haven't measured them yet, but maybe someone knows why there'd be the two different shapes.
* Stock is very nice. Some marks on it, but they are honest marks where it's been used.
* Tasco scope is the older Japanese one. Not world class, but a solid unit. Sits in a Conetrol mount.
* Recoil pad is in fairly good shape, so that's a nice bonus. Probably could still use a freshening.
* The box of ammo included the previous owners last load data of 86gr IMR 4064. I'll obviously need to vet that, but it's golden to have a starting point like that.
* This is a CRF design.
* Rifle has been bedded nicely.
* Timney trigger works exactly like a you'd expect a nice Timney to work!

Overall the condition was better than expected --- some very light work with some 0000 and Rem oil took some of the gunk off, but no rust spots or major problem areas that I've seen. Will need to bore scope it, and then go through safety checks (I already tested the actual safety first and it's good though).

I have no complaints on this... it looks like it's going to be a super fun addition to the line up. I'll have to find 404 Jeffery brass, but it also means that I'll only have to stock .416 cal projectiles to match up with my other recently acquisitions. Pictures coming in next post!

I am a soothsayer. . Congrats!

 

[Rez Exelon]

I am a soothsayer. . Congrats!

Dear soothsayer. I require a prophecy that these dies get fixed or something (Please)

 

[RR 314]

Dear soothsayer. I require a prophecy that these dies get fixed or something (Please)

Haaaaaaaa. Let it be said. Let it be done!

 

[Rez Exelon]

So last night I got the chance to go play in the garage some more after a disastrous range day. As in the disaster started when I forgot "targets" and included everything from "literally my tripod on the Chronograph fell apart" to "the Ruger No 1 (416 Rem) didn't go boom when I pulled the trigger". It actually continued to get worse when I took it apart and nearly lost a part.

So anyways, that rotten part aside, I did wind up testing a bit using my Redding 416 Ruger die for sizing. Lubed a case up well, and ran in it incrementally without the expander/decap installed until I saw the sizing area just hit the top of the shoulder. Then switched back over to the CH4D die with expander installed to back it out. That done, I had perfect neck tension. Not exactly like I have a go-nogo for this, so I grabbed one of the Speer bullets and seated it just below the cannelure. At that point I took the round, shoved it in the mag, and tested and it fed perfectly from mag to chamber and chamber to ground on extraction.

So, while that doesn't answer the question of "why the heck don't the FL sizing dies actually size anything" it does prove that there's a viable method to get round made.

That said, this project may go on hiatus for a few days. I need to try to figure out the Ruger issue before I make another range trip Friday and just got a Redding 416 Taylor die in the mail to play with, so I'm going to try to rip some rounds out there before the range trip as well.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Don't forget to check overall length. I think you may be seating a bit high? Wait ... you said Speer bullet. Barnes TSX requires a jump to the lands. Not sure about Speer. How was the case length? My RWS 404 cases are short and yes they do crimp just below cannelure to achieve spec OAL.

 

[Rez Exelon]

So kind of an update as I've let this thread get a little dormant. I reached out to CH4D on the dies, and sent them some pictures, then some measurements from the brass. Unless anyone has a really creative way to measure inside the dies then I've basically sent everything useful I can think of to them and will have to wait to hear back on what they say. In the meantime a good friend of mine is helping me out by sending some 404 Jeffery that I'll use sparingly to test with --- the idea being that possible the RWS brass that I have has necks that are too thin. Might as well pull apart a round of new brass to get measurements on it for comparison since I need the brass to load rounds anyways. Outside of that, the rifle is still gloriously nice, but man it hurts not being able to really play with it yet.