.404 Jeffery

[TerryR]

I took my second Buffalo with a 404 Jeffery. I realize that a sample size of one is statistically irrelevant, but the difference in reaction between my first buffalo ( 375 H&H ) and my second was significant. This is a great buffalo caliber.

 

[Kiwi505]

My 404 and 8x68S M03. The 404 is one of the sweet shooting big bores..not many of those around!!!!!

Here she is with the 404 barrel attached

Ed

Wow, that is great. Are you the origional owner or is there a story behind the combo with other owners?

 

[505ED]

No its a brand new gun. I start the stories!

 

[Kiwi505]

No its a brand new gun. I start the stories!

That is even better, looking forward to the stories!!

 

[Ardent]

I love the .404! Havent taken one hunting yet but fully intend to take my CZ Safari Classics .404 to Africa someday soon. Check out my article in the Sept. 2010 issue of Gun World magazine for my pc on this cartridge and the CZ rifle. Right now I am planning for my hunt to Zim in 2011 with Touch Africa Safaris for plains game.

I hunted buffalo with Touch Africa Safaris this April, you will have an absolutely amazing time and I'm envious.

As for the Mauser m03 posted above by another poster is that action controlled round feed? I'm confused why Mauser strayed from the best bolt action design ever, its model 98. I'm sure it's a high quality rifle, I just know little about it other than it outwardly appears much departed from Mauser's own excellent model 98.

 

[505ED]

I hunted buffalo with Touch Africa Safaris this April, you will have an absolutely amazing time and I'm envious.

As for the Mauser m03 posted above by another poster is that action controlled round feed? I'm confused why Mauser strayed from the best bolt action design ever, its model 98. I'm sure it's a high quality rifle, I just know little about it other than it outwardly appears much departed from Mauser's own excellent model 98.

I posted the M03. There are many reasons that Mauser strayed from the M98. The M98 is a great action--but it is over 100 year old tech. Why are we not typing letters and sending them to each other? Because the wonderful tech advances. The world wide web lets us talk almost in real time. Same as the M03 and others. Is the M03 a CRF? The answer is no. Does it function flawless? The answer is yes. The guns that are coming out of germany today are by far better than the old M98's. The M98 was ment to feed the x57's thru a stripper clip. We have shoehorned everything from a 223 to a 500 jeffery in the M98 and expect them to feed. If the M98 is not tuned to the specfic cart it does not feed and will jam. Is the CRF a good system? Yes, one of the best, but its not the only system.

I'm a partner in a sporting goods and gun shop. 80% of the guns that we get with feeding problems are CRF guns. This does not mean it a bad system, but it does mean that they are not perfect.

The M98 is a great action, just like Henery Fords car the Model T was a great car. We have made some great advances in gun tech in the last 100 years, try some sometime!!!

 

[nztimb]

What is a fact is that Mauser is still manufacturing the Mod 98 in standard and magnum lengths because the action when mated with the cartridge it was geometrically developed to feed with is and will always be foolproof. ... BUT the fact remains that shooters like everybody else are always looking for ongoing developements and will take what they percieve to be an improvement over an established design. However from all the PH surveys I have read over the years, it seems that those who rely on thier rifles in SHTF situations, most, if not all use a 98 or close derivative. There are more companies manufacturing the 98 style for the serious rifleman (and the Rem clones for the accuracy guys, or LR non DG use) than any supposed improvement on the 98 system. Also as 505ED says there are a lot of guys out there converting the 98 from one cartridge to another without the understanding of the mag box subtlties that make 100% feeding the reality for those that do.
For myself I converted a 1950's FN Colombian from 30-06 to 404J and get flawless feeding, as good and as reliable as I also do from my 1908 DWM in origional 7x57. Took a FN from 30-06 to 7x61 S&H and never had an issue with feeding, while I have sometimes had my XR 100 Rem in 20VarTarg mis-direct a cartridge nose into the chamber face rather than the chamber itself.
While many may be opting for the newer rifle designs there is no denying that the 98 will be with us for as long as man has need of a rifle.

Von Gruff.

 

[Ardent]

I'm of a similar line of thinking as Von Gruff, I have a 1926 Mauser Oberndorf commercial sporter in 7x57 and can't imagine an advance in bolt actions past it. With regards to feeding and extraction, it's a more than century proven fact that a properly set up CRF action is the best there is. Half stroking, upside down, sticky cases you name it. Poor conversions say nothing of the action, only the gun smith.

505ED, I do like the takedown nature of your M03 and the above said, I'm sure it's a superb rifle, the Germans always have and will continue to know what they're doing when it comes to arms. Not my cup of tea, but interesting to see and appreciate your reply. If we all liked the same guns, our passion for fine guns would be relegated to a very boring aspect of our sport. I do have to disagree that modern arms are far better than original Mausers, they're not, they're just different.

 

[505ED]

I hate to disagree. I have used classic M98's and M70's(lots of them).

1. They will not take down (Most M70, M98will not)--for one. If you ever travel with a takedown gun you will never go back (I promise you).

2. Most of the new high quality rifles are far more accurate than the "old tech" rifles. I can say front to back the New rifles we sell are far more accurate out of the box than any M98 that we have had thru our shop.

3. All the new rifles we sell--feeding out of the box is a none issue. Just take it out and start to shoot. The Sauers use an inline feed system--I dont think you can get it to mis-feed it is one of the most reliable systems I've ever seen.

4. The warranty is better--the guns now most have a 10 year "bumper to bumper" fix it worry free warranty. Try that with a 100 year old Mauser.

5. Last--all in all they are less expensive than a new M98. A new M98 either built by Mauser or a good maker will be in excess of6,000 to 9,000 US dollars even up to 12,000 to 15,000 from a really well known maker. I know I'll get "I built mine for 1,000 bucks!"inocchio: Trust me we are not talking the same class of rifle. Most of the Blaser/Mauser/Sauer start in the mid 4K's for a nice rifle.

I'm not trying to be a stinker, just trying to tell a little truth. New guns like the Blaser/Mauser/Sauer/Steyr may not be your cup of tea but for out of the box guns they are better than any other out of the box gun plus a whole hord of custom guns.

We had a customer that just got thru doing a very nice CZ 550 in a 416 rigby. Good gun base price one it was around $900. We recut and crowned the barrel $200, had about $225 worth of action work,put some decent sights on it $350, put a 3 position saftey on it with a new cocking peice and set it up for talley QD rings $775. He has about 2500 and its a decent rifle that he will get about $100- to 1200 when he wants to get rid of it--and he still cannot change cailbers, and this rifle is not near in the class fit and finish wise as my M03

With a M03, I can have 22 different calibers on one frame, if it does not shot MOA with the barrel I send it back for another barrel that will. I can take the gun down in a neat case for travel and when I put it back together it is zeroed. They function smooth and there nitrited finish will not scratch, and if I go to sell it--it will usually bring what I paid for it. We have guy waiting for used M03/R93's to come onto the market as they are usually 25% to 30% less than new componets.

One thing I have found out as M70-M98 guys will never changeThats a good things I guess. I just cannot see the logic sometimes. Most never have shot a high quality new gun--so I take the CRF, feed upside, actions made for the cart specific down comments in stride.

The M98 is a classic. Its like a '57 chevy. Damn nice to look at, and a joy to take out on hot Aug nights, but dont tell me a Toyota Avalon is not better for an over the road trip.

Out,

Ed

 

[505ED]

What is a fact is that Mauser is still manufacturing the Mod 98 in standard and magnum lengths because the action when mated with the cartridge it was geometrically developed to feed with is and will always be foolproof. ...
Von Gruff.

Not true Von--the action used in the Mauser M98 are made by Master Gunmaker Gottfried PRECHTL - MAUSER Magnum and MAUSER Standard hunting rifles.

that is a fact! Great actions but the are not made in the Mauser factory.

 

[Ardent]

Interesting points, but I must be of the crusty old school, as I wouldn't be caught dead driving the Toyota avalon. I find my PH and friend to be of the same, with a CRF M70, which he chose for reasons I'll never consider passe. I also have no need for MOA at 600 yards, and find there isn't an animal in the world I can't find the places I need to on it to drop it with 'old tech'. My CRF .375 that I took my buffalo bull and some plains game with in April shoots a bonafied non-internet 0.5", and I've found that neat off the bench but irrelevant for hunting. As well month ago I won a rifle match with a 80 year old VZ24 M98 action, so accuracy isn't something I feel the M98 is hurting in. Heck, double rifles even group well enough for 90 percent of hunting situations.

Take down, I agree with you there, having rolled my full length case through several countries just to get to my destination. Looking at a couple different take down options for my dangerous game rifle upgrade, it's a critically important feature on my list these days. Though my full length .375 will likely be the only rifle again for my next trip. I think in general, we just both see the other as stuck in a view, and perhaps we are. At least we're both happy with our respective ends of the spectrum.

 

[nztimb]

Not true Von--the action used in the Mauser M98 are made by Master Gunmaker Gottfried PRECHTL - MAUSER Magnum and MAUSER Standard hunting rifles.

that is a fact! Great actions but the are not made in the Mauser factory.

Of course you are right and I should have said " new 98 actions were still offered by " rather than manufactured.

Your points are all well made as to the take down and multi barrel - cartridge options but for many of us there is a point at which advancing technology goes past what we look for, need or want in a rifle. The history, effectiveness and nostalgia of using the 98 actioned rifles add to our hunts in a manner we may not be prepared to trade for the technology of the new rifles designs. Having said that I do acknowledge that the majority of new rifles sold by a friend - dealer - gunsmith is the Blaser so I know how effective they are but I don't think for my needs I could enjoy a hunt nor have any more sucess with one than I already do with my 1908 DWM. Heck people still hunt with bows and arrows.

Von Gruff.

 

[Ardent]

I'll always see push feeds as good hunting rifles, but not dangerous game rifles and I'm confidant this isn't misguided. The PH community clearly supports this position as well. R93's, etc are fantastic guns, but in the end, they're just bolt actions. There are better bolt actions, but I don't feel they represent them. What they do, they do extremely well however, such as take down for travel. Changing cartridges with a quick barrel swap means little to me, as I hunt everything with one cal, and choosing the right one negates the multiple barrels issue. Instead, I just change loads, all in .375, from 235 grains to 380 grains. My .375 has taken game ranging in weight from 45lbs to 2,000lbs. But that's getting into a whole other matter, cartridge choice! What I DO look forward to one day is two sets of barrels, one frame, with a double rifle and a set of mated 20 gauge shotgun barrels in my case. That will be a perfect setup.

 

[Mike70560]

Ed,

1. They will not take down (Most M70, M98will not)--for one. If you ever travel with a takedown gun you will never go back (I promise you).

I know the Mauser has been built in takedown rifles. I recently held a beautiful Duane Wiebe built 500 Jeff takedown Mauser owned by a gentleman in Houston. No interchangeable barrels and maybe that is what you are referring to.

Example 2-5 do not mean much to me. My rifles are plenty accurate to hunt with, they do not go unless they feed flawlessly, warranties on rifles do not interest me I want dependability, and cost takes a back seat to just about anthing else.

I like the M03. I do not have many holes in my collection under .500 caliber but could always use a 404J.

However what is the benefit of the interchangeable barrels while hunting. I am old school to some degree (I do like new technology). My last trip to Africa I carried a 470 double for the big stuff and the water carrier (or at times the tracker) carried my 375 H&H for plainsgame. The 375 was also there in case of any problems with the 470.

If I had only the M03 with even three barrels I feel I would be at a disadvantage. Please explain to me the benefits while hunting so I can justify buying one or two. I am not being a smarta$$ as I do like the one M03 rifle I handled.

 

[505ED]

Mike,

As for one, I said most. I have seen quite a few takedown Model 70's, Dakota traveler's, Duane's guns--heck even we have built 2 takedowns in house, but they were not designed that way!

The multi barrels has more to do with being familar with your rifle ie. trigger pull, length of pull, ect--not to do with the act of hunting per say. The take down is very helpful if you travel. I travel about 40 weeks of the year, and I can tell you that a smaller package is always welcome. If you dont think so--you dont travel much. I'm sorry you would feel disadvantaged with 3 barrels. I could shoot damn near anything I want with a 375, but I still like to have a 300 mag or a 8x68S barrel. Hey man, not trying to be surly either. I own 3 double rifles myself (500,450/400,9.3x74R), and a host of other rifles ( about 60 at present time) I just feel like the MAUSER/Blaser/Sauer are a better buy than the custom rifle route.Glad everyone likes somthing different--it would be a boring world.

Ed

 

[Ardent]

A good summary, clearly all avenues have merits, it's which one we each choose to take.

 

[Mike70560]

Ed,

Will the M03 reliably feed the Barnes Banded Solids or North Fork Flat solids? That is an important issue for me. I bet they will but you are the only person that I can ask that actually owns one.

That was the nice question now for the surly responses.

At one time traveled far more than I like because of my job. I would easily make Platinum on Continental and can gladly say I do not miss it. However I have no problem with my long guns in the Tuff Pak or my double in a breakdown case. They both work.

I will also hunt anything on earth with the .375 but prefer to use others also. The comparison I was making is that with two rifles you just reach back and grab the other from the tracker. With one rifle with multiple barrels once you leave the vehicle you have what you brought. The real solution would be two M03s with a 458 Lott, .375 H&H, .338 Win, and 7 by 57.

I am probably splitting hairs on the two rifle thing but I did use both on a buffalo hunt this year. Bring the double and and M03 in 375. Problem solved.

Thanks for your responses.

 

[Mike70560]

Ed,

I do not guess you are close enough to Houston to make the big bore shoot next weekend? I would like to see that 404J in action especially with the bolt being on the proper side.

 

[505ED]

Mike,

On the Flat point solids and banded solids--my short answer is I dont know? I think they would but dont know. I have only used the Hornday DGS and woodleighs thru mine. Rusty Knight will be at the Houston shoot I think with his M03 404 he has loaded different bullets in his, might ask him. I cannot make the shoot. I travel quite a bit ( Gold on Delta--and 1K on United--fun,fun)so when i get home I tend not to stray to far plus I can shoot very, very close to home.

 

[limpopo]

Ed,

Will the M03 reliably feed the Barnes Banded Solids or North Fork Flat solids? That is an important issue for me. I bet they will but you are the only person that I can ask that actually owns one...

My first post but have been lurking around for a bit............

I have 4 M03's and they will feed Barnes Banded solids reliably in 375 H&H (300 grain) and 416 Rem (400 grain). Just added a M03 Africa Extreme in 404 Jeff this week, so don't see why it should be any different. My Africa M03 in 375 has served me well in Zim/Bots last year. As ED505 says, these are dead reliable and travel well and when reassembled, are dead on.