.404 Jeffery vs .458 Winchester Comparison

[Shootist43]

Pheonix Phil, if you don't mind sharing the info, what is it going to cost you to get your 300 RUM rebarreled to a 404 Jeffery? Will it be a CRF or just a "pusher" once it is completed? I've been contemplating purchasing a 404 Jeffery but they all seem to be pricey in the case of custom guns or over priced CZs due to the limited supply.

 

[Shawn.54]

Not to butt in I believe it is a pusher and a gun shop here in Pa sales 700 actions in the ultra mag for $360.
I myself decided to use a standard length Mauser and do the modification myself.
Shawn

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

With few 404 rifles available, what would be a good caliber rifle to rechamber/rebarrel to make a 404? A 375? A 458?

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Shaun, something interesting , a .375 H&H Magnum brass fire formed to fit in my 404 Jeffery..if ever you do not get 404 Jeffery brass to use...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Some beautiful 404 Rifles my good friend Johan Greyling build...

Notice the nice buffalo grip cap on the one rifle...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I did hunt with the 404 Jeffery last week, I will be uploading a write up about this hunt. In short: I loaded the 404 Jeffery with S365, 75 gn , 350 gn Steward soft nose bullet, it had a devastating effect on the blue wildebees I shot. It fell like a ton of bricks ...and blasted a hole as big as my fist through the ribs ....on the impala it looked even more impressive... But minimal meat damage..it destroyed every bone it went through...the bullet was not recovered...

 

[Rule 303]

Pheonix Phil, if you don't mind sharing the info, what is it going to cost you to get your 300 RUM rebarreled to a 404 Jeffery? Will it be a CRF or just a "pusher" once it is completed? I've been contemplating purchasing a 404 Jeffery but they all seem to be pricey in the case of custom guns or over priced CZs due to the limited supply.

If you can pick up a CZ550 in 375H&H it should only require a barrel and minor works on the feed rails I would think. This is the way I would go and was looking a doing until I found a CZ 416Rigby. I guess you could do the same with a Win 70 in 375 H&H or 416Rem. All are CRF

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Some interesting information that underscore the capabilities of the 404 Jeffery , I do have a 404 Jeffery, I am not bias towards the 404 Jeffery , I have used it and really saw what great caliber it really is , especially if you want to use it as a culling rifle for dangerous game like elephant and buffalo....if your rifle have a 1:14 twist it will stabilise a 450 gn bullet...this weight bullet will put the performance of your 404 Jeffery in another class of it`s own....Dr. Kevin Robertson is a firm believer in the 450 gn bullet for the 404 Jeffery rifle...
Look at these specifications :
Maybe some suggestion regarding the twist rate of a 404 Jeffery....if you want to shoot a 450gn bullet to increase the penetration capabilities of a 404 Jeffery by increasing the sectional density of a bullet in using a heavier bullet in the 404 Jeffery than the standard 400gn bullet .The best option being the 1:14 twist rate will be able to stabilise the 450 gn bullet...this bullet will give you a sectional density of 0.359 that is a 450gn bullet in a .423 barrel ...
Compare a .458" (.45) 500 grain, SD .341
; .474" (.470 NE) 500 grain, SD .318
: .416" (.416) 400 grain, SD .330
Maybe not part of the conversation in this regards, looking at the 8 mm bullets , they really are running with the best...

• 
  .323" (8mm) 200 grain, SD .274
  .338" (.338) 200 grain, SD .250

• 
  .323" (8mm) 170 grain, SD .233

• 
  .338" (.338) 180 grain, SD .225
• (SD data from Chuck Hawks )

 

[Ray B]

Not to be taken as a criticism but a Sectional Density rating is a bit deceiving. It indicates the average length of the bullet while not taking into consideration the ratio of length to width. For example, a .50" bullet and a .264" bullet having the same SD and similar point shape would be similar lengths but the .264 would be a long bullet (shape) whereas the .50 would be a short stubby shape. Due to the different shapes, the .264 would be expected to have better penetration, while the .50 would have more impact.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Ray B , yes you are correct, when looking at what these large calibers can achieve it still is important to take all factors in account . When I look at the .458 WM bullet and put a .423 "( 404 Jeffery ) alongside it..I still believe the .458 WM is the bullet to beat..with stopping power and frontal surface of the bullet...although the 404 Jeffery , 450 gn bullet will be the one that out penetrates the .458 WM bullet....this is how I perceive it..other people may disagree with me...

 

[IvW]

Even a 400gr 404 Jeff @ 2300 fps will outperform a 500gr 458 Win @ 2000 fps all day long. This is actual performance in the field on DG not paper punching.

A few years ago I chronographed some factory 458 Win ammo and could not find one that could get to 2050 fps!!

Now the best performance on DG is with a heavy for caliber bullet travelling at a respectable velocity. Over the years I have found that 2200-2400 fps is the best performing velocity on DG. As an example in my 500 Jeff the 570 grn bullet at 2300-2350 outperforms the 535 grn bullet even if pushed to 2500 fps.

If you could load and shoot the 404 Jeff with a 450 grn bullet at 2300 fps, which should be reached without any pressure issues due to ample case capacity, you would have a super DG combination that will perform with the utmost satisfaction.

A 458 Win cannot fire a 500 grn bullet at 2100 fps reliably without undue pressure issues, especially when used in the Zambezi valley or even in Northern KZN when the temperatures start rising., let alone try and use a 550 grn bullet, just not possible in this cartridge with it's small case..

Gentleman like Richard Harland used a 458 Win with great success during his years culling elephants, however this was the only game department rifle available that was suitable for the job, so in short he did not have much of a choice. He is very experienced in this department and could brain an elephant from almost any angle, he knows exactly where to place the bullet. Now Richard is also a PH and guided a South African to the largest elephant shot in Zimbabwe, for this work he however used his 505 GIBBS, of which he speaks highly and not his 458 Win.

Tony Sanchez Arino, the greatest hunter of all in my opinion, used a 458 Win once and vowed never to touch a rifle chambered in that caliber again. He uses 375 H&H, has great praise for the 416 Rigby, used a double in 470 NE but prefers his 500 Jeff and describes it as the most devastatingly effective combination he has used even in the most dangerous situations with elephant.

Personally I stay far away from a 458 Win. I have always recommended a 375 H&H(300-350 grn bullets, 404 Jeff(400-450 grn bullets), 416 Rigby(400-450 grn bullets-if the client can handle the extra recoil of the Rigby) for DG. Unless he/she has a double rifle, and is proficient with it, this is all a client needs.

500 Jeff and 505 Gibbs are just too much of a specialized cartidge to recommend for a client to use on DG, unless he/she owns such a rifle and shoots it well.

I wholeheartedly agree with Gert, that heavy for caliber bullets are the way to go on DG and if loaded in a caliber that can achieve 2200-2300 fps WITHOUT pressure issues, you have a magic formula for DG.

Many believe that the 458 Win is a powerhouse and suitable for all the DG, I do not. For me it is a marginal caliber for that purpose. When hunting DG you need a cartridge/rifle combination that you can rely on to get the job done everytime, especially when things go wrong.

When things go wrong you want the margin on your side not the DG you are hunting and the 458 Win does not qualify. You would be better off with a 404 Jeff(which is the OP's original question). For PH backup work I have never found the need to swap my 500 Jeff for any other rifle and am in agreement with Tony on his assessment.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

IwV, I totally agree with your opinion. If I ever have a chance to hunt buffalo/elephant I will use my 404 Jeffery with a 450gn bullet loaded to 2200 f/s. I would take the shot within thirty meters ( walk /stalk) . The reason I have a preference for this rifle is:
It fits me like a glove.
This rifle is extremely accurate with v-express sights.
I shoot remarkably close groups from sixty meters open sights.
It has a mild recoil..not noticeable when shooting at game.( I shoot it comfortable off a bench)
I can carry it from morning to evening for two weeks non stop.

The .458 WM Manlicher Schoenauer :
Is a fun rifle to shoot.
I shoot it comfortably , but still have to make it fit me, need to shorten the stock with two centimeters.
It has a rotating magazine , this feature was saving Richard Harland more than a few times when culling elephant, especially when he had to shoot fast to cull a whole herd of elephants.
Downside: I have not shot it with full loads.
It is not possible to convert to a .458 Lott .
It does not feel as good as my 404 Jeffery I trust and handles so good.
It is an advantage to practice shooting with a heavy caliber like the .458 WM and shoot /hunt with the 404 Jeffery..although most of the time I am practicing shooting my 404 Jeffery whenever I get the opportunity...
Conclusion:
There are more to discussing which caliber rifle has the best features to use as a dangerous game hunting/culling rifle than meets the eye..

 

[Rule 303]

Some interesting information that underscore the capabilities of the 404 Jeffery , I do have a 404 Jeffery, I am not bias towards the 404 Jeffery , I have used it and really saw what great caliber it really is , especially if you want to use it as a culling rifle for dangerous game like elephant and buffalo....if your rifle have a 1:14 twist it will stabilise a 450 gn bullet...this weight bullet will put the performance of your 404 Jeffery in another class of it`s own....Dr. Kevin Robertson is a firm believer in the 450 gn bullet for the 404 Jeffery rifle...
Look at these specifications :
Maybe some suggestion regarding the twist rate of a 404 Jeffery....if you want to shoot a 450gn bullet to increase the penetration capabilities of a 404 Jeffery by increasing the sectional density of a bullet in using a heavier bullet in the 404 Jeffery than the standard 400gn bullet .The best option being the 1:14 twist rate will be able to stabilise the 450 gn bullet...this bullet will give you a sectional density of 0.359 that is a 450gn bullet in a .423 barrel ...
Compare a .458" (.45) 500 grain, SD .341
; .474" (.470 NE) 500 grain, SD .318
: .416" (.416) 400 grain, SD .330
Maybe not part of the conversation in this regards, looking at the 8 mm bullets , they really are running with the best...

• 
  .323" (8mm) 200 grain, SD .274
  .338" (.338) 200 grain, SD .250

• 
  .323" (8mm) 170 grain, SD .233

• 
  .338" (.338) 180 grain, SD .225
• (SD data from Chuck Hawks )

I am going to hi jack the thread for a moment. To compare apples with apples what is the sectional density of the heavy for calibre bullets in the above examples. i.e. 450grain 416 etc?

 

[IvW]

I am going to hi jack the thread for a moment. To compare apples with apples what is the sectional density of the heavy for calibre bullets in the above examples. i.e. 450grain 416 etc?

.416 (416 Rigby) 450 grain sectional density .371
.422 (404 Jeff) 450 grain sectional density .361
.458 (450 Rigby )550 grain sectional density .375
.505 (505 Gibbs) 600 grain sectional density .336
.510 (500 Jeff) 600 grain sectional density .330

As can be seen the .458 heavy for caliber bullets have the highest sectional density, however this is of no use in a 458 Win as one cannot use these bullets in it.

Anything over .300 sectional density is excellent for DG hunting.

With the jump up in frontal size and case capacity, which allows easy use of the heavy bullets at low chamber pressure, the two 500's are in a class of their own.

As mentioned before the only .458 I would personally use is a 450 Rigby, just a pity the 500 Jeff is so damn good I cannot justify it!

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Something interesting: Your .500 Jeffery is capable of shooting further than you expected of this caliber. It will push a 465 gn round nose bullet out to 225 meters...it seems you can use it for plains game as well...(Pierre van der Walt : African Dangerous Game cartridges)

 

[Gert Odendaal]

IvW, 404 Jeffery groove diameter .423" , the bore diameter .412" but we have slug some 404 Jeffery barrels and got a groove diameter of .418" ...

 

[IvW]

IvW, 404 Jeffery groove diameter .423" , the bore diameter .412" but we have slug some 404 Jeffery barrels and got a groove diameter of .418" ...

That is so but Woodleigh shows their bullet as .422 on their website. Typo?? not sure but this info is straight from there.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

It does not mater, it still is a great caliber every one want to own a 404 Jeffery ,...even if you already have a double rifle....

 

[Ray B]

Woodleigh lists the bullets designed for the 404 as .422"; they list bullets for the 10.75x68mm as .423".

 

[Gert Odendaal]

10.75 x 73 = 404 Jeffery (.423)
10.75 x 68 = 10.75 x 68 ( .423)
Woodleigh needs to explain this to me..I really would like to know how they get the same bullet diameter different from each other????

.423in= 10.74420mm