404 Jeffery Build on a standard action ??

[GoexFFG]

Is it doable??

 

[BlueFlyer]

Which standard action? - Enfield P14 or M17 is a definate yes, Mauser?

 

[GoexFFG]

Whitworth Zastava action

 

[BlueFlyer]

I think Ontario Hunter on this forum has done this. There are some photos of his rifle in 404J on my thread 416WSM.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Yes, it is doable. I started my project in April last year and finished it in time for safari four months later. Lija in Montana made the barrel and Dennis Olsen mounted it. A local machinist here opened the bolt face using Duane Wiebe's booklet for guidance. I did the rest of the work. A couple of gunsmiths told me it couldn't be done but I knew it could because standard 98 Mauser was all Jeffery had to work with when he first introduced the cartridge in 1905. To accommodate the thicker cartridges, Jeffery removed the sides and front of magazine box and opened up the stock cavity. I bought 416 Remington Mag bottom metal from Swift and it worked without modification. 404 does not require cutting into the locking ring like 375 or 416 Rigby. Modifying the extractor, follower, feeding rails, and loading ramp was the most challenging aspect. Screw up the feeding rails and throw away the action. Using standard depth bottom metal, the 404 will hold three cartridges max in the magazine but a fourth can be pushed under the extractor for closing with a total of 3+1. Extended four-cartridge capacity bottom metal can be ordered but requires a custom stock.

It's not an easy project but it is doable. My 404 cycles very slick. Standard action 404 gives the advantage of shorter stroke and less weight than magnum length action. But not necessarily lightweight. With #5 profile 24" barrel my rifle still weighs right at ten pounds fully loaded. But that's not a bad thing. 404 is noted for relatively light recoil for a dangerous game thumper gun but it still has plenty to dish out. Weight is your friend when shooting these guns.

Here's my 404 built on an 8mm military Czech 98 Mauser action. It wears Warne QD rings, a 1-5x 30mm Bushnell scope, and optional iron sights from a 1990's Winchester Safari Express.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

The Germans specifically designed the 10.75x68mm Mauser (another .423 caliber cartridge with a smaller case capacity) in order to fit standard length Mauser Oberndorf actions.

But as @Ontario Hunter has proven, it can be done. Also on Winchester Model 70 actions.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The Germans specifically designed the 10.75x68mm Mauser (another .423 caliber cartridge with a smaller case capacity) in order to fit standard length Mauser Oberndorf actions.

But as @Ontario Hunter has proven, it can be done. Also on Winchester Model 70 actions.

I did a bit of quick research on 10.75x68mm. Wikipedia says it was developed twenty years after 404J for Mauser magnum actions which doesn't make sense because the cartridge is nearly half an inch shorter than 404J. It would seem it was designed specifically for standard Mauser actions. The magazine box would not need to be lengthened and presumably the loading ramp would not need to be modified. It shot the same diameter bullet as 404J but fifty grains lighter. Apparently the 10.75x68 performed very poorly on dangerous game but was for some reason popular in Africa. Possibly because it was more cheaply produced in standard action Mausers. It is claimed the rifles were also lighter at 7 to 7.5 lbs but that might be an exageration. Even with modern bullets I think that cartridge in a 3×1 standard Mauser would be pushing the envelope for dangerous game. A banana clip detachable magazine and legs capable of Olympic sprinting might make it a more workable option.

I see your old comrade Major Khan didn't think much of that cartridge or its chief advocate, the mighty white hunter Don Anderson. The Major could be quite blunt in expressing his opinions. I hope his unsettled soul has finally found peace in the hereafter.

 

[GoexFFG]

I have 10.75 Mauser. A box of Woodleigh solids and softs. 40 pieces of Betrams brass. It’s nearly impossible to find components. I’ve always wanted a real 404.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Nothing wrong with the 10.75x68 with modern powder and projectiles.
And I built my 404 on a standard action
Gumpy

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Another picture, bit dark but shows the action
Gumpy

 

[GoexFFG]

That’s a good looking rifle you do custom work??

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Nothing wrong with the 10.75x68 with modern powder and projectiles.
And I built my 404 on a standard action
Gumpy

View attachment 630177

You have given me cause to reconsider my hasty appraisal of the 10.75x68. Of course, 400 gr bullets would be too much for that short case no matter what powder is used. With 400 gr I think it probably would be difficult to achieve the 2150 fps basic DG load for 404J. But Hammer in Missoula, MT and Cutting Edge in Boise, ID make a variety of copper bullets for 404. I presume they would work in 10.75. I ordered a trial pack of 307 gr from Hammer. Still working up a load. Initially they didn't group well but the barrel wasn't broken in. It's shooting 400 gr very well now loaded with 80 gr Accurate 4350 so I need to try again and see what those lighter bullets can do with another powder. I know from personal experience that modern bullets MUCH lighter than 400 gr will kill a buffalo very efficiently. 400 gr is the old cup-and-core 404J standard from the days of cordite and lead a hundred years ago. Strange that manufacturers like Barnes and Hornady are still clinging to that bullet weight for factory loaded ammo.

I'm thinking these 307 gr copper bullets could be loaded fairly hot in a 10.75 case. And their 250 gr bullet should have some range. Might be a good option to have along for plains game.

Can 404J case be cut down and fire formed for 10.75? Or do they have different rims? Building a 10.75 on a standard action Mauser would be much less complicated than 404J. Especially tuning the feeding rails. 416 Rem bottom metal should work if a spacer was added to the front of the box. Something to think about.

 

[Huvius]

The 404 and 10.75 are entirely different cases. A 10.75X68 can be rechamberd to 404 as the barrels (and twist in original Mauser) are the same for both.
404s were routinely built on standard length actions - Jeffery used standards for their rifles at the start and many other makers built them as well.

Recently, there has been work on a short necked 404 which makes sense for OAL consideration. I don’t recall who was doing this but it is a thing and other than the incompatibility with original 404 ammunition does alleviate the length issues in using standard length action. The short neck ammo works in the original chamber just not the other way around.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I did a bit of quick research on 10.75x68mm. Wikipedia says it was developed twenty years after 404J for Mauser magnum actions which doesn't make sense because the cartridge is nearly half an inch shorter than 404J. It would seem it was designed specifically for standard Mauser actions. The magazine box would not need to be lengthened and presumably the loading ramp would not need to be modified. It shot the same diameter bullet as 404J but fifty grains lighter. Apparently the 10.75x68 performed very poorly on dangerous game but was for some reason popular in Africa. Possibly because it was more cheaply produced in standard action Mausers. It is claimed the rifles were also lighter at 7 to 7.5 lbs but that might be an exageration. Even with modern bullets I think that cartridge in a 3×1 standard Mauser would be pushing the envelope for dangerous game. A banana clip detachable magazine and legs capable of Olympic sprinting might make it a more workable option.

I see your old comrade Major Khan didn't think much of that cartridge or its chief advocate, the mighty white hunter Don Anderson. The Major could be quite blunt in expressing his opinions. I hope his unsettled soul has finally found peace in the hereafter.

On the subject of the 10.75x68mm Mauser, I couldn’t agree more. It was actually designed specifically for standard length military surplus Mauser actions. It was not intended as a serious dangerous game cartridge for people who hunted for a living. Rather, it was intended as a general purpose brush caliber designed for chambering in low cost mass production rifles for sale to farmers and settlers that wanted to hunt for the pot, while also having an adequate means of defense against the odd crop raiding elephant or hippopotamus or the odd livestock killing lion or leopard. Rifles of this caliber (and also the 11.2x72mm Schuler to a lesser degree) were almost universally employed by farmers and settlers in the Belgian Congo, French Congo, Portuguese Mozambique, Spanish Gabon & (of course) the German African Colonies. They were imported through Janssen Freres in the Belgian Congo. Most of these rifles were either:
- German DWM Mauser Oberndorf Type B
- French MAS 36
- Belgian FN Commercial Mauser

In British colonial India, German DWM Mauser Oberndorf Type B rifles in 10.75x68mm Mauser were imported into the country between 1931-1939 by Manton & Co. in Calcutta.

In my personal experience, this is a very underwhelming caliber for dangerous game (barring wild boars or leopards on bait). Case capacity is unimpressive. Velocities are low. And the sectional density of a .423 caliber 347Gr bullet is poor. Many of the old timer authors seem to agree with me (Harry Manners, John Taylor, Marcus Daly, Finn Aagaard). Granted, modern heavy jacketed bonded bullets from Wim Degol (and formerly Woodleigh) and modern propellant powders have definitely improved things noticeably. But still, this is not a suitable caliber for lion, hippopotamus or Cape buffalo (and definitely not elephant) for any but the most opportune of picked shots.

I used a Belgian FN commercial Mauser in 10.75x68mm Mauser to hunt water buffalo in Australia in 1977 (with RWS 347Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads). The ammunition (with it’s thin brittle steel jacketed bullets) was absolutely beastly and I had a very difficult time in hunting those water buffalo successfully. I also saw a couple of old German rifles in this caliber in the hands of two TAWICO appointed native African white hunters in Tanzania in 1978 (when the hunting ban had just been lifted but Caucasian hunters were not allowed to guide Safaris anymore).

On the subject of Donald Anderson,I am not as vindictive towards old Don as the late Major Khan was (the Major disliked Anglo Indians, you see). But yes, I have found Don’s conduct to be quite spineless & dishonorable & cowardly. Until 1969, he was an extremely impulsive hunter (of leopard, Asian sloth bear, wild boar & gaur) with absolutely zero regard for game laws. For instance, back in those days… Bangalore used to only issue permits for one male Asian sloth bear per season. Yet, on more than one occasion… there are photographs of Don with two or more Asian sloth bears (both male & female). Don’s impulsiveness would get not one but two of his native trackers killed by wounded leopards. But after hunting got banned in India in 1972, Don suddenly became the most vocal anti hunter you could find in an attempt to curry favor with the new wave of Indian anti hunting tabloid journalists and such. Before his death, he worked with an Indian anti hunting author named Peter Joshua to publish his so called autobiography “The Last White Hunter”. In it, he basically blames every tragedy in his life (like becoming penniless due to his drinking & womanizing problems & mismanagement of his family assets) as “Karma for being a blood thirsty hunter”. He also went so far as to say “The only difference between hunting and poaching is a piece of paper”. Granted, he was living in poverty and many Indian animal rights journalists were giving him handouts for helping them sell their narrative. But as a hunter, his conduct was most spineless.

P.S: Donald Anderson’s rifle wasn’t a 10.75x68mm Mauser. It was a .404 Jeffery built by W.J Jeffery. And Donald never actually owned any firearms of his own. They were all licensed in his father, Kenneth Anderson’s name. After Kenneth Anderson passed away in 1974, Donald tried to sell the rifle to my friend, Indian PAC officer Nawab Shafath Ali Khan. In Kenneth Anderson’s own words, he never called the rifle a “10.75x68mm Mauser”. Only a “.423 Mauser”. And Peter Joshua (who wrote Donald Anderson’s autobiography) knows nothing about firearms.