404 Jeff - looking for some clarification regarding loading 400 grain Northfork SS bullets

[Jagerrand]

Ok don't kill me for asking. I see many people recommending 84 grains of H4350 with a 400 grain A frame. I can't find those bullets anywhere so I have sources 400 grain Northfork SS and Cup Point solids. I would like to use H4350 powder. The warning in the Northfork packaging about reducing powder loads has me concerned. The Northfork website does not list H4350 powder for the 400 grains bullets only the 340 and 430.... Where should I start? I have a chronograph and I will start on the lower end and be watching my fps as well as looking for signs of overpressure.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I shoot Barnes 400 gr TSX with 80 gr A4350. The load data I used said start with 77 gr but the primers were pushing out so I jumped up to 80 gr. Primers stay in the pocket. Recoil is tolerable (barely) and groups about MOA at 100 yards. 84 gr would be max I think. You don't need that much velocity for those 400 gr bullets to do their job. Your shoulder doesn't need it either. Like everyone says, if you want 416 Rigby cartridge performance, buy a 416 Rigby.

 

[Javaman]

I’m currently loading 400 grain Safari Solids from Cutting Edge over H4350. I’m also loading their 370 grain Safari Raptors, also over H4350. Both for a Ruger No. 1 in 450/400 3”, aka 400 Jeff. Cutting Edge has good load data for any number of powders for their .409 NE bullets (.409 is the diameter they machine their NE bullets to). I found I could not get the velocity I wanted from IMR 4831 or RL19 with these bullets - going plenty fast with H4350. And shooting sub-MOA. YMMV but Cutting Edge also sells a 400 grain Safari Solid and it’s matching 370 grain Safari Raptor (a solid machined out to be a soft) in .423 so could be a good resource for you.

 

[Javaman]

I shoot Barnes 400 gr TSX with 80 gr A4350. The load data I used said start with 77 gr but the primers were pushing out so I jumped up to 80 gr. Primers stay in the pocket. Recoil is tolerable (barely) and groups about MOA at 100 yards. 84 gr would be max I think. You don't need that much velocity for those 400 gr bullets to do their job. Your shoulder doesn't need it either. Like everyone says, if you want 416 Rigby cartridge performance, buy a 416 Rigby.

OH - can you please explain your experience and the concept of going up on powder if primers are pushing out? I’m seeing some of that in my 450/400 3” loads and have been wondering what’s going on, and how to fix it. Thanks in advance.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

OH - can you please explain your experience and the concept of going up on powder if primers are pushing out? I’m seeing some of that in my 450/400 3” loads and have been wondering what’s going on, and how to fix it. Thanks in advance.

I know it doesn't make sense but I checked several reloading forums and saw the same question came up and response was always the same: not enough gas in the loads. Too much gas will result in flattened primers (I experienced that once when loading 300 gr bullets using 4895 powder and data from some old wizard's manual who it turns out liked to load stuff hot). The physics of the protruding primer phenomenon was explained but it was all kinda Greek to me. Perhaps others more knowledgeable can chime in. Anyway, stepping up the loads cured the issue.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

404 Jeffery Load

400 grain Swift A-Frame or 400 grain North Fork Semi Spitzer(SS)

84 grains of H4350

400 grain North Fork Solid

83.7 grains of H4350

2300 FPS

Same impact spot.

HH

 

[sgt_zim]

OH - can you please explain your experience and the concept of going up on powder if primers are pushing out? I’m seeing some of that in my 450/400 3” loads and have been wondering what’s going on, and how to fix it. Thanks in advance.

As I understand it, with too little powder, a too-small powder charge translates to the top of the powder (now lying horizontally) being below the primer pocket - when the primer throws its spark, it ignites the entire powder column all at once, more or less. With sufficient powder in front of the primer spark, the powder is ignited from back to front, generating a pressure curve rather than a pressure spike when the entire column is ignited all at once.

 

[sgt_zim]

Ok don't kill me for asking. I see many people recommending 84 grains of H4350 with a 400 grain A frame. I can't find those bullets anywhere so I have sources 400 grain Northfork SS and Cup Point solids. I would like to use H4350 powder. The warning in the Northfork packaging about reducing powder loads has me concerned. The Northfork website does not list H4350 powder for the 400 grains bullets only the 340 and 430.... Where should I start? I have a chronograph and I will start on the lower end and be watching my fps as well as looking for signs of overpressure.

Thank you in advance.

I'm using Gordon's Reloading Tool, and planning on starting the same journey with 400 gr NF ss.

My starting load will be 77 gr of H4350, and I'll go up in 1 gr increments on a 10-shot ladder until I see pressure signs or I get to 2250 fps, whichever comes first.

GRT calculates ~2240 fps MV at 77 gr, though I expect IRL the actual is going to be 2150 or even a little slower.

I don't see a great reason to chase velocity on this cartridge. On a 100 yard zero with 2300 vs 2200 fps, there's less than 0.5" difference out to 175 yards, and only about 0.75" difference at 200 yards; and no more than 300-400 ft lbs of difference between them out to 200 yards.

 

[Jagerrand]

Thanks for all the replies!

I just got back from the range. Used the Labradar for the first time. That will take a little more practice but I only dropped 2 out of 19 shots fired. It was windy and the unit moved a little off target, lesson learned.
It is all starting to make sense on why I felt the recoil was so harsh with this gun. The factory loads from Hornady were averaging 2347fps with some as fast as 2378fps. I didn't think I was that recoil sensitive but those factory rounds really got my attention.

I loaded some 400 grain barnes bullets from 80- 84 grains of H4350

80 grains was about 2260(I had 2 dropped velocities here)
81 grains 2280
83 grains 2330
84 grains 2351

I will try the 400gr Northforks SS next. I think what Sgt Zim says makes sense to me. I plan on starting at 77 grains and up 1 grain as well checking velocity and signs of over pressure as I go. I really don't see the need to chase velocity. The rounds I fired with 80 grains and 2260 fps were a significant reduction in recoil over the factory load. I think that if I can find a consistent load in that 2150 to 2200fps range I will be thrilled.

As always thoughts and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I'm using Accurate 4350. It burns differently than IMR or Hodgon but not a lot. I figured 80 grains with Barnes 400 gr bullets was giving me around 2200 fps. Thanks for confirming (sort of). 77 grains pushed the primers but also gave very good group and much kinder to shoot. I think I'll step down one grain to 79. A bit under 2200 fps is fine for my needs.

Accurate powder was all I could get my hands on during the pandemic. My 30-06 likes it so I'm sticking with it. Trying to anyway. Curious thing is I loaded up some 307 gr Hammer bullets with IMR 4895 and those kicked even harder than 400 gr. Still searching for better load option for them.

For the life of me I cannot fathom why Hornady is gassing up their bonded 400 gr factory ammo to +2300 fps. It's like they've gone to the trouble to make a run of ammo when no one else is making the stuff and then fix it so no one would buy it more than once. Baffling. Like they are trying to create a used market for 404J rifles.

 

[sgt_zim]

One other thing worth mentioning. I learned in the early days of reloading for my 45-70 - it takes a lot of powder to move the needle much on velocity with heavy bullets.

I was accustomed to 0.2 or 0.3 gr increments for small bore like 6.5x55 and 308. Small increments like that on 405, 425, and 525 gr bullets had so much overlap in measured speed I had a wasted day because there wasn't but about 2.5 gr difference between slowest and fastest. Your own LD for 404J bears this out - about 20 or 25 fps improvement with 1 gr increments. I think I ended up with about 30 or 35 fps improvements on 1 gr increments for my 45-70, topped out at about 1625 fps for all 3 bullet weights.

Of note, I did do a single test load of 5 shots with (I think) 76 gr of 2000MR using 400 gr DGX, came in at about 2240, about where the Swift load data predicted a 400 gr A Frame would be, and actually pretty close to what GRT predicted.

The one potential issue with 2000MR is temp stability, around .9 as I recall. H4350 is much more temp stable, below .2. That's probably a safer bet for you being in WI. I can easily test loads on hot summer days where I live. It doesn't get appreciably hotter in Africa than it does in Houston, at least not enough difference to drastically increase pressure on a powder like 2000MR.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Thanks for all the replies!

I just got back from the range. Used the Labradar for the first time. That will take a little more practice but I only dropped 2 out of 19 shots fired. It was windy and the unit moved a little off target, lesson learned.
It is all starting to make sense on why I felt the recoil was so harsh with this gun. The factory loads from Hornady were averaging 2347fps with some as fast as 2378fps. I didn't think I was that recoil sensitive but those factory rounds really got my attention.

I loaded some 400 grain barnes bullets from 80- 84 grains of H4350

80 grains was about 2260(I had 2 dropped velocities here)
81 grains 2280
83 grains 2330
84 grains 2351

I will try the 400gr Northforks SS next. I think what Sgt Zim says makes sense to me. I plan on starting at 77 grains and up 1 grain as well checking velocity and signs of over pressure as I go. I really don't see the need to chase velocity. The rounds I fired with 80 grains and 2260 fps were a significant reduction in recoil over the factory load. I think that if I can find a consistent load in that 2150 to 2200fps range I will be thrilled.

As always thoughts and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I have worked up loads using North Fork bullets in quite a few rifles and ranging in calibers from 7mm, ,308, .375HH, .458BM and .470NE. The one thing I learned early on with North Fork is they are true diameter bullets. A .308 is a .308, not .306 or slightly under, etc. As such the accuracy of the loads will be affected by the quality of the brass and specifically neck thickness. Use high quality brass such as Norma or Lapua for best accuracy. Or alternatively turn your necks.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

As I understand it, with too little powder, a too-small powder charge translates to the top of the powder (now lying horizontally) being below the primer pocket - when the primer throws its spark, it ignites the entire powder column all at once, more or less. With sufficient powder in front of the primer spark, the powder is ignited from back to front, generating a pressure curve rather than a pressure spike when the entire column is ignited all at once.

Ah, so this explains the use of filler with some loads? I really liked the group and recoil of 77 gr loads. I may have to reconsider going back to it if filler will cure the popped primers.

 

[Javaman]

Ah, so this explains the use of filler with some loads? I really liked the group and recoil of 77 gr loads. I may have to reconsider going back to it if filler will cure the popped primers.

Interesting concept that I had not fully considered for 450/400 3”. Hmmm … Dacron as a filler? Wonder how to test the concept. My powder charge is well below H4350 max but shooting sub-MOA so I’d like to keep the load but improve the bulging primer issue.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Interesting concept that I had not fully considered for 450/400 3”. Hmmm … Dacron as a filler? Wonder how to test the concept. My powder charge is well below H4350 max but shooting sub-MOA so I’d like to keep the load but improve the bulging primer issue.

Let's see what @sgt_zim says. I'm no expert but I have read about fillers before, mostly, as I recall, for loading pistol ammo.

 

[sgt_zim]

Let's see what @sgt_zim says. I'm no expert but I have read about fillers before, mostly, as I recall, for loading pistol ammo.

I have never used filler. Sorry, no idea, other than that's why it's used. How much to use with what kind of powder for which cartridge...beyond my kin.

 

[Rare Breed]

I’m currently loading 400 grain Safari Solids from Cutting Edge over H4350. I’m also loading their 370 grain Safari Raptors, also over H4350. Both for a Ruger No. 1 in 450/400 3”, aka 400 Jeff. Cutting Edge has good load data for any number of powders for their .409 NE bullets (.409 is the diameter they machine their NE bullets to). I found I could not get the velocity I wanted from IMR 4831 or RL19 with these bullets - going plenty fast with H4350. And shooting sub-MOA. YMMV but Cutting Edge also sells a 400 grain Safari Solid and it’s matching 370 grain Safari Raptor (a solid machined out to be a soft) in .423 so could be a good resource for you.

Absolutely love CEBs!!!