404 Barnes and Johnson Express

[jruby]

I aquired an old FN Mauser - dated around 1951 . It is chambered in the above caliber. I have been fire forming brass for it from 375H&H brass - cutting it down and blowing the cases out with the cream of wheat method. It's. 411 caliber. I am finding very little information on this cartridge. I can think of very little purpose in North America for this cartridge other than to learn from it. Does anyone know anything about this round including reloading data. Everything I find says to use IMR 4320 which has been discontinued for several years. Are there any books that discuss this cartridge? Can I use 416 Taylor load data?

 

[IvW]

Reloading Data .404 B-J Express (Barnes Johnson) (P.O. Ackley Data) Metallic

.404 B-J Express (Barnes Johnson) (P.O. Ackley Data) reloading data with 3 loads. Using bullets from . Powders include IMR

loaddata.com

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Curious if that rifle was built on a magnum or standard length Mauser action?

 

[jruby]

Curious if that rifle was built on a magnum or standard length Mauser action?

Not quite sure how to tell.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Not quite sure how to tell.

What's the distance between action screws? 7.75" = standard length action. Is there a stripper clip slot on top of receiver and/or left hand thumb cutout on left side rear receiver? Both of those would indicate a military surplus standard length Mauser action rebuilt to take magnum cartridge. Nothing wrong with standard action rebuilds. Actually, some hunters prefer them because they have shorter cycling. Magnum length action = worth more. Why? Good question. I don't have an answer.

 

[jruby]

What's the distance between action screws? 7.75" = standard length action. Is there a stripper clip slot on top of receiver and/or left hand thumb cutout on left side rear receiver? Both of those would indicate a military surplus standard length Mauser action rebuilt to take magnum cartridge. Nothing wrong with standard action rebuilds. Actually, some hunters prefer them because they have shorter cycling. Magnum length action = worth more. Why? Good question. I don't have an answer.

This is an FN commercial mauser action
. No thumb cut or stripper clip slot. The action is marked 1951. I am guessing it is an early commercial action. I will post some pictures of it.

 

[jruby]

I received a bunch of old Barnes bullets with rifle. Are these any good?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I received a bunch of old Barnes bullets with rifle. Are these any good?

They might be collectible. Caliper the bullets and make sure they aren't 404 Jeffery. Neither cartridge is actually .404 caliber. If they are correct caliber, I see no reason why you can't shoot them. Unless you may want to see if they'll bring a collector's interest. Don't throw the boxes away. If it says 404 B&J on the box, I'd be surprised they're not collectible. That gun is a wildcard wildcat. An interesting piece of history.

 

[jruby]

Here is a picture of the rifle

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Here is a picture of the rifle

Nice looking gun!

 

[jruby]

I was thinking about using Barnes 300G TSX bullets that are .411 diameter - I think they were made for the 405 Winchester for a hunting load here in the states. I feel that I can get several hundred fps better velocity out of this rifle than the 405 Winchester - you think the TSX's would hold up?

 

[TheDoubleD]

Sorry, I am a bit late to the party,

I have .404 Express built by Barnes. It is built a standard 98 Mauser action. I acquired it 25-30 years ago.

I started shooting with .411 bullet, but it didn't shoot well. I had a difficult time then finding .411 bullets. I decided to get a bullet mould and shoot cast bullets. I slugged the bore and it measured at .416" groove.

I was talking with the late "Chick" Donnelly about the gun and cartridge and he suggested I measure the fired brass. He also said compare that with the .416 Chatfield-Taylor, later just .416 Taylor. I found that the .404 Barnes Express (Barnes-Jones Express) had a shoulder a few thousandth smaller than the Taylor, other wise they were the same. Basically Chatfield-Taylor copied the Barnes-Jones cartridge. He perceived a need for a lightly large shoulder, but I don't recall what that was. What ever it was his cartridge was pretty successful.

A friend had a .416 Taylor. My .404 Barnes brass would load and fire in his chamber. His .416 Taylor cartridges would not chamber in my gun.

I use .416 Taylor Load data. I had Whidden build me dies. https://www.whiddengunworks.com/

I haven't used this gun in years- 2002 maybe. I usually get rid of guns I don't use much. That is, unless they shoot well, those guns i keep.

I would have to dig out an old laptop or old back up drive to find my load data.

Suggest you slug you bore an make sure you are .411 groove,

 

[jruby]

Sorry, I am a bit late to the party,

I have .404 Express built by Barnes. It is built a standard 98 Mauser action. I acquired it 25-30 years ago.

I started shooting with .411 bullet, but it didn't shoot well. I had a difficult time then finding .411 bullets. I decided to get a bullet mould and shoot cast bullets. I slugged the bore and it measured at .416" groove.

I was talking with the late "Chick" Donnelly about the gun and cartridge and he suggested I measure the fired brass. He also said compare that with the .416 Chatfield-Taylor, later just .416 Taylor. I found that the .404 Barnes Express (Barnes-Jones Express) had a shoulder a few thousandth smaller than the Taylor, other wise they were the same. Basically Chatfield-Taylor copied the Barnes-Jones cartridge. He perceived a need for a lightly large shoulder, but I don't recall what that was. What ever it was his cartridge was pretty successful.

A friend had a .416 Taylor. My .404 Barnes brass would load and fire in his chamber. His .416 Taylor cartridges would not chamber in my gun.

I use .416 Taylor Load data. I had Whidden build me dies. https://www.whiddengunworks.com/

I haven't used this gun in years- 2002 maybe. I usually get rid of guns I don't use much. That is, unless they shoot well, those guns i keep.

I would have to dig out an old laptop or old back up drive to find my load data.

Suggest you slug you bore an make sure you are .411 groove,

Thanks for the info. This 404 is a really well built rifle and a joy to shoot. I have been trying to form brass from 375h&h since I can't find virgin 458 brass. Must be doing something wrong as I can't get the loaded ammo to chamber even though I can get the fire formed brass to. I am using tsx 300g bullets for the 405 winchester. The 405 and my 404 both use .411 bullets. I figured anything I would shoot with my 404 here in the states a 300g bullet should work well.i look at this work Is an investment in my education

 

[TheDoubleD]

My first batch of brass was made from .300 Winchester . A second batch was made from .375. There was a reason I didn't use .458 brass, but I can not remember why--to short when formed, maybe.

The .375 brass had to be inside neck reamed as it is thick,

Slug you bore an make sure you really are a .411.

Again when I slugged my bore it was .416. I am saying my bore is .416, I am not saying yours is.

I am saying check it.

.416 has a better selection of bullets, only reason.

I used mine for jump shooting whitetail does in weed beds in the middle of wheat fields in Montana. Head shoots only, no wasted meat.

 

[jruby]

An update
I have since tried using 338wm neck sized to the 404BJE. Loaded 70g of IMR4350 pushing a barnes 405 winchester 300g TSX bullet. Only fired about 12 rounds and out to 50 yards. I am amazed how accurate this rifle is. I was able to aquire groups less than an inch at 50 yards. I will be moving out to 100 yards next time. This project now that I know some of the answers it is now getting fun. I have never had a big bore before and hence the recoil is substantial especially while shooting from the bench. I can't imagine anything in North America this won't stop.

 

[Huvius]

I just inadvertently bought a set of dies for this cartridge.
If anyone here has a need for them I'd be happy to sell them.