400 H&H

[V.Veritas]

@Pheroze, I've read this post with very much interest following up your progress on this 400 H&H rifle. Is it done yet?
Have you posted your experience with it on a different thread maybe?

 

[Rosch]

I had once this sort of cartridge in my hand and that was the 400 (Pondoro?) from A-square, Alphin advertised personal when displaying on the Nürnberg gun Show more than 20 years ago. In my opinion its too close to 375, which has good parameters in speed and bullet weight, and not far enough from the 416 versions, which offer all great power, good supply on brass and bullets, which does for standard cartridges. The sad point on those exotic developments is allways right stamped brass when You go to Afrika. You are mostly not allowed to bring otherstamped brass and ammo than You stamps on the gun. So You NEED right marked shells. No way around. No forming from other calibers possible. That is why I ordered a hole bunch of brass for my 425 Express, to be independent until the end.

 

[Pheroze]

@Pheroze, I've read this post with very much interest following up your progress on this 400 H&H rifle. Is it done yet?
Have you posted your experience with it on a different thread maybe?

Thanks for asking . It has been a very slow process for many reasons. No one person or international insanity is to blame, but it is frustrating. However, last week I was told the barrel was being laser engraved to identify the cartridge. So I hope to get word before too long that it is done. I genuinely anticipate in the next few weeks.

These pics were sent a few months ago.

 

[Pheroze]

I had once this sort of cartridge in my hand and that was the 400 (Pondoro?) from A-square, Alphin advertised personal when displaying on the Nürnberg gun Show more than 20 years ago. In my opinion its too close to 375, which has good parameters in speed and bullet weight, and not far enough from the 416 versions, which offer all great power, good supply on brass and bullets, which does for standard cartridges. The sad point on those exotic developments is allways right stamped brass when You go to Afrika. You are mostly not allowed to bring otherstamped brass and ammo than You stamps on the gun. So You NEED right marked shells. No way around. No forming from other calibers possible. That is why I ordered a hole bunch of brass for my 425 Express, to be independent until the end.

It's hard to know these things for sure. At a minimum, the larger surface area cannot hurt the effectiveness. It's effectively 450/400 with a bit more juice to get it to a shade under 2400 fps. One person suggested i just load it to 450/400 levels anyways to spare myself the recoil. But, my experience with the cartridge is that it feels completely manageable to shoot.

Components are an issue. I bought an array of TSX, Nortfork, AFrame and Woodleigh as I found them. I bought a lot of brass too. I am glad I did!

 

[Rosch]

It's hard to know these things for sure. At a minimum, the larger surface area cannot hurt the effectiveness. It's effectively 450/400 with a bit more juice to get it to a shade under 2400 fps. One person suggested i just load it to 450/400 levels anyways to spare myself the recoil. But, my experience with the cartridge is that it feels completely manageable to shoot.

Yeah, around 2400 feet is always a good level to be in.
The .411 diameter brings also some more "juice" into business.
I experienced the same with those parameters and had great success on my hunts and wonderful times on african grounds. Isn't it all about that?
Recoil: I believe that the 400 is nice to shoot. Never let it happen, that You are fearing a shot from Your own gun. There are so many features to place on Your gun stock to get rid of too much recoil if needed. Besides, doing diligent practice sessions, here and then, will help to increase handling and results.
And later big fun when hunting. Healthy Selfconvidence is a kind of resultmaker!!

 

[colorado]

I had high hopes for this cartridge, but it seems to be fading away. Wouldn't stop me from building one though, it would be a nice big brother to the "obsolete" .400 Whelen I hope to own someday.

If Holland and Holland had just necked up the 375 H&H (not "improved" it) to .423 caliber they would've had something. A 404 Jeffery like cartridge without a rebated rim that had the Holland and Holland name.

 

[jlb1036]

you can duplicate the ballistic of the 400HH by simply using a 416 rem mag or rigby
any animal you shoot with a 400 grs at 2400 fps is not goig to react any diff by .400 vs .416 diameter projectile its all about shoot placement
so either use the very simple and readily avalible 375 HH or the 416 rem/rigby.

 

[Nevada Mike]

If Holland and Holland had just necked up the 375 H&H (not "improved" it) to .423 caliber they would've had something. A 404 Jeffery like cartridge without a rebated rim that had the Holland and Holland name.

404 Jeffery with rebated rim?

 

[zephyr]

Stock looks Great !!!

 

[colorado]

404 Jeffery with rebated rim?

Guess i was wrong, assumed it was like my 500 Jeffery.

 

[Excessexpress]

you can duplicate the ballistic of the 400HH by simply using a 416 rem mag or rigby
any animal you shoot with a 400 grs at 2400 fps is not goig to react any diff by .400 vs .416 diameter projectile its all about shoot placement
so either use the very simple and readily avalible 375 HH or the 416 rem/rigby.

You may duplicate the 400’s ballistics with that tawdry Remington load, but you’ll never shoot animals of the same class old chap!

 

[colorado]

there's a reason we kicked the Brits out of America in 1776

 

[Rosch]

404 Jeffery with rebated rim?

Hey guys,
rebated rim?
Here's the interesting story (from Wikipedia) about that rebated rim and a big game cartridge, which never made it actually:

The .425 Westley Richards (11x67mmRB) is one of the classic African big-game rounds. It is a cartridge invented by Leslie Bown Taylor of Westley Richards, a gunmaking firm of Birmingham England in 1909 as a proprietary cartridge for their bolt-action rifles.

Since before 1912 Rigby were Mauser agents in the UK and managed to persuade Oberndorf to develop and produce special Magnum actions for them, other British companies who wanted to compete with their .400/350 Nitro Express big five game hunting rifles had to improvise and use standard-length Gewehr 98 actions, which only allow approximately 84 mm cartridges to fit into the magazine (a bonus was having a shorter bolt throw).

The round was the first in Great Britain (and the first major in the world) to have a rebated rim, one that is smaller in diameter than the case body, an invention which Taylor patented in 1908. This allowed it to be used in converted G98 rifles with standard bolt faces and not have them weakened by widening.

However, it complicated the magazine design: when the cartridge is pushed forward and the bullet rides up the feed ramp, smaller diameter rim dives down and tends to slip under the bolt face (especially in absence of special measures to ensure reliable feeding), which may cause a serious jam. To solve this problem, Taylor developed (and patented in 1909 a proprietary single-stack magazine akin to Belgian Mauser, which similarly extended below the stock. However, many rifles were and are nevertheless produced with standard G98-type flush double stack, double feed magazine, which works quite well as long as the spring remains strong enough.

The rebated rim also allows government game officers and authorized hunters to use standard stripper clips for rapid reloads when culling rogue animal.

 

[PCC600]

Lets see I have in the safe a
300H&H
375H&H
400 H&H
All based on the same cartridge, the 465H&H is based on the 378 Weatherby case.
I guess that leaves only the 275 H&H to be put in the safe....
Other than a few .22s I have nothing smaller than a .30 cal in the safe ......

What about the H&H 240 Apex ? You are already on a roll .

 

[Excessexpress]

there's a reason we kicked the Brits out of America in 1776

Getting all upset about a minor tax has had interesting results…

 

[Pheroze]

I picked up the rifle! It's a beauty

I also got to the range to sight in the scope. I used my own handloads with Woodleigh Weldcore round nose bullets. The first shot was off paper. I dialed to the shot that is upper left, the next was lower left. I then put the next three in the centre.

In total I shot 6 of my hand loads and fell in love with this rifle. From the bench it wasn't that bad at all. The Khales scope is great. I didn't try the iron sights as I wanted to try a different load that I bought.

I bought loaded ammo from Safari Arms that is for sale at a local store called Ellwood Epps. Strangley there were 9 boxes on the self. I bought one to try

Not good

It went bang. But then the bolt didn't want to open. When it did it left the case behind. I got home and tapped it out. I know why there are 9 boxes on the shelf.

I called Ellwood Epps to let them know. I got a rather indifferent response and a pointed question about my rifle. The fellow on the phone said he would let someone know.

I am looking forward to playing with this rifle, and get hunting!

Better late than not at all?

 

[Pheroze]

Interesting, I measured and pulled a bullet from the Safari Arms ammo. I cannot figure out what is off. The case is sized fine, the OAL is fine, the powder weight is 74.7 gn which would seem to be about standard (although I dont know what powder it is). In fact, my handloads have a longer COAL and a heavier charge. The other difference is I am using Qual-cart and the safari ammo is RCC.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

It looks like the extractor groove wasn’t fully cut on the one side. Maybe that happened to be where the extractor was supposed to be and it didn’t get a proper grip.

It looks like it has been dragged across concrete! If that is from chambering it, how on earth you managed to close the bolt is beyond me. Looks like you’d have to hammer it in place.

When you say it measures in spec is that a fired or unfired cartridge? If you are strong enough, you can resize the cartridge by chambering it and by the looks of that cartridge, the base was a little too big.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

RCC cases were lathe turned (company out of business). I’m not a machinist or metallurgist so take my comments for what they are worth: drawn cases are work hardened by the drawing process. Is it possible the bases on a turned case were not as hard as they should be and expanded more/rebounded less after firing and that’s why they got stuck?

 

[CoElkHunter]

I picked up the rifle! It's a beauty

View attachment 606395View attachment 606396View attachment 606397

I also got to the range to sight in the scope. I used my own handloads with Woodleigh Weldcore round nose bullets. The first shot was off paper. I dialed to the shot that is upper left, the next was lower left. I then put the next three in the centre.

View attachment 606398

In total I shot 6 of my hand loads and fell in love with this rifle. From the bench it wasn't that bad at all. The Khales scope is great. I didn't try the iron sights as I wanted to try a different load that I bought.

I bought loaded ammo from Safari Arms that is for sale at a local store called Ellwood Epps. Strangley there were 9 boxes on the self. I bought one to try

Not good

It went bang. But then the bolt didn't want to open. When it did it left the case behind. I got home and tapped it out. I know why there are 9 boxes on the shelf.

View attachment 606399View attachment 606400View attachment 606401

I called Ellwood Epps to let them know. I got a rather indifferent response and a pointed question about my rifle. The fellow on the phone said he would let someone know.

I am looking forward to playing with this rifle, and get hunting!

Better late than not at all?

I LOVE the rifle but the expended cartridge damage shown isn't good.