4 Bore Smoothbores for dangerous game?

[4 Bore]

The 4 bore would be a much greater challenge though....

You could leave the .450 NE for the last two day's....

I've never gone hunting without the .450 NE. It's like a bull dozer for Game . Never failed me

 

[IvW]

That's very good advice , sir. I am right now 80 % thinking of just sticking to my .450 NE.
My gunmakers exact words were " Sir , Your cylinder Smoothbore can definitely and safely fire slugs , but bear in mind that it will lack the penetration / stopping energy of a rifle . Especially since you are going after cape buffalo

Good advice.

However if you put the work in and are prepared to only take the correct shot if presented the hunt for a Cape Buffalo with a 4 bore would be so much more challenging and satisfying if pulled off, but you need to understand the limitations involved in such a hunt...

 

[4 Bore]

Good advice.

However if you put the work in and are prepared to only take the correct shot if presented the hunt for a Cape Buffalo with a 4 bore would be so much more challenging and satisfying if pulled off, but you need to understand the limitations involved in such a hunt...

So much much more difficult than a .450 NE ?

 

[IvW]

It's a Smoothbore. That's where the complications arise

The right slug, at the correct velocity and provided the barrels regulate reasonably at about 50 meters no reason not to look at it...

Just use it within its limitations and not try and make a 100 yard DG rifle out of it..

If it is what you want to do, I would say go for it...

 

[4 Bore]

The right slug, at the correct velocity and provided the barrels regulate reasonably at about 50 meters no reason not to look at it...

Just use it within its limitations and not try and make a 100 yard DG rifle out of it..

If it is what you want to do, I would say go for it...

Oh , about that... The gun malers said that the accuracy would be around a dinner plate ( as in , most of the shots would form a group the diameter of a dinner plate ). That's good , right ?

 

[IvW]

So much much more difficult than a .450 NE ?

You will need to put in more work with the stalking in order to get in close enough.

You will not be able to take the same shots as you would with the 450 NE due to less penetration. So for me full frontal and quartering to shots would not be advised with the 4 bore.

The best for success would be to be able to stalk into position without the Buffalo being aware of your presence and the wait for the perfect broadside shot.

This would make for a much more challenging hunt as you will be limiting yourself on the shots presented and which ones you can take.

Having said that with the right PH if you pull it off it will be a much more satisfying hunting experience.

Is that not what it is all about? What you would like to achieve and then being able to make it happen?

Would be a much more memorable experience than hunting it with the 450 NE, in my humble opinion anyway...

 

[4 Bore]

You will need to put in more work with the stalking in order to get in close enough.

You will not be able to take the same shots as you would with the 450 NE due to less penetration. So for me full frontal and quartering to shots would not be advised with the 4 bore.

The best for success would be to be able to stalk into position without the Buffalo being aware of your presence and the wait for the perfect broadside shot.

This would make for a much more challenging hunt as you will be limiting yourself on the shots presented and which ones you can take.

Having said that with the right PH if you pull it off it will be a much more satisfying hunting experience.

Is that not what it is all about? What you would like to achieve and then being able to make it happen?

Would be a much more memorable experience than hunting it with the 450 NE, in my humble opinion anyway...

Thats a very wise perspective sir. But l understand that this would be a very poor weapon to stop a charging buffalo or elephant , yes ?

 

[IvW]

Oh , about that... The gun malers said that the accuracy would be around a dinner plate ( as in , most of the shots would form a group the diameter of a dinner plate ). That's good , right ?

@ 50 meters it would be more than good enough as you would probably be taking the buffalo at 25-30 meters which would mean at minimum both lungs which is all you need.

This is assuming a broadside shot which would be the only one I would recommend with your intended rifle.

 

[4 Bore]

@ 50 meters it would be more than good enough as you would probably be taking the buffalo at 25-30 meters which would mean at minimum both lungs which is all you need.

This is assuming a broadside shot which would be the only one I would recommend with your intended rifle.

Heads are a complete no no , then ?
( And yes , l did get ONE very lucky kill of a cape buffalo once with a brain shot from the .450 NE )

 

[IvW]

Thats a very wise perspective sir. But l understand that this would be a very poor weapon to stop a charging buffalo or elephant , yes ?

You are correct!

If you plan on hunting either Cape Buffalo or Elephant(not advised) with your 4 Bore rifle, then hunt it, you can but trying to stop either when charging would be a very bad idea.

That is why you pay for the services of a Professional Hunter.

As you mention you will take your 450 NE along, you could always swap the 4 bore out for the 450 NE when any follow up is needed. If a charge occurs directly after you have fired the first barrel of your 4 bore(which is highly unlikely), the PH should be able to sort it out otherwise he probably should not be a DG PH to start with...

You need to just pay attention to the limitations of your chosen firearm and ensure you place that first shot in the right place, otherwise do not pull the trigger..

 

[IvW]

Heads are a complete no no , then ?
( And yes , l did get ONE very lucky kill of a cape buffalo once with a brain shot from the .450 NE )

Yes, head shots are a complete NO NO on Cape Buffalo, unless it is charging and at less than 5 yards and has dropped it's head to engage you with it's horns!!!

Getting into such a situation is highly unlikely.

A Professional Hunter that allows you to take head shots at buffalo as an initial shot is well, an idiot and should not be guiding clients, especially if the client is using a 4 bore with a dinner plate grouping at 50 yards!!!

 

[4 Bore]

Yes, head shots are a complete NO NO on Cape Buffalo, unless it is charging and at less than 5 yards and has dropped it's head to engage you with it's horns!!!

Getting into such a situation is highly unlikely.

A Professional Hunter that allows you to take head shots at buffalo as an initial shot is well, an idiot and should not be guiding clients, especially if the client is using a 4 bore with a dinner plate grouping at 50 yards!!!

I have made up my mind then. I will take the .450 NE as a back up ( in case the worst should happen ). I will take the 4 bore for one buffalo and stalk it and try to get a lung shot via broadside. If it doesn't work , I'll permanently stick to my .450 NE

 

[Red Leg]

You will need to put in more work with the stalking in order to get in close enough.

You will not be able to take the same shots as you would with the 450 NE due to less penetration. So for me full frontal and quartering to shots would not be advised with the 4 bore.

The best for success would be to be able to stalk into position without the Buffalo being aware of your presence and the wait for the perfect broadside shot.

This would make for a much more challenging hunt as you will be limiting yourself on the shots presented and which ones you can take.

Having said that with the right PH if you pull it off it will be a much more satisfying hunting experience.

Is that not what it is all about? What you would like to achieve and then being able to make it happen?

Would be a much more memorable experience than hunting it with the 450 NE, in my humble opinion anyway...

IvW, you and I tend to agree on a great deal, but I know that I would never use, and I am certain I would never advise another person to use a gun of any persuasion of any caliber that had "dinner plate" (as in a hundred meter MOA of 16-20 inches depending upon the porcelain service) accuracy at fifty meters on anything - even if he had J. A. Hunter or Philip Percival at his shoulder to clean up the mess.

 

[Dewald]

Welcome to AH 4 Bore. Excuse the hijack as I know preciously little about large bore shotguns/ smooth bores. It sounds like a lovely battery you have and are building. I never realized Watson Bros used the Westley Richards droplock design on their shotguns. Please post a close up photo of that 7mm Rigby in your profile. I’m a big fan of them. The rifle seems to have a few features resembling an early Brno ZKK600, with the pistolgrip and fore-end checkering pattern, hollow bolt knob, rear receiver pop-up peep sight button notch, rear sight etc. Its difficult to make out the detail as Avatar pictures are of such low resolution.

Regards,
Dewald

 

[WAB]

Fascinating post and cool project! Just curious 4 bore, why have you decided not to fit it with rifled barrels? Did you consider partially rifled barrels, I.e. the old cape guns?

 

[Red Leg]

Cape guns are typically a side x side rifle caliber barrel (fully rifled) and a smooth bore shotgun. They were popular for the colonial market - hence the name. The partially rifled barrels were used on side x side Paradox guns which were designed to shoot a conical bullet or shot from the same barrels. They are extremely difficult to build - as for as I know, only Holland offers them now. They have to regulate like a double rifle, and yet, also throw perfect patterns. My William Evans shoots a three-inch L/R x L/R at 100 meters with a 740 gr conical and perfect modified patterns with 1 1/8 ounces of No. 6 shot.

 

[IvW]

IvW, you and I tend to agree on a great deal, but I know that I would never use, and I am certain I would never advise another person to use a gun of any persuasion of any caliber that had "dinner plate" (as in a hundred meter MOA of 16-20 inches depending upon the porcelain service) accuracy at fifty meters on anything - even if he had J. A. Hunter or Philip Percival at his shoulder to clean up the mess.

Yes you are correct.

The rifle has not been built yet and I am sure the accuracy and grouping would be acceptable once done.

If the rifle in the end is only capable of lets say a 9 inch group at 50 meters would that mean a complete no no for buffalo?

Maybe not.

Not ideal but still do able.

That would mean 4 1/2 inch from point of aim at 50 meters. At 25 meters it would be 2 1/4 inch. If used at 25-30 meters as I suggested it would be acceptable. It would not be the ideal situation but if he really wants to shoot a buffalo with it and he uses it within it's and his own limitations it will get the job done. The vital lung area on a buffalo at 25-30 meters is quite big.

Yes it will be a difficult hunt and it is going to take patience to get into position and be patient enough to wait for the correct shot.

The other option would be to adjust the sight to point of aim for one of the barrels, again not ideal but do able and then be aware of where the second barrel will impact.

Rifled barrels or Paradox barrels would be a better option and slugs would be the way to go and not round projectiles.

The smooth bores I have used all have good accuracy, granted they are not 4 bores but they shoot very well and I only use slugs in them and not balls.

Lets see when done what the groupings look like(if one can actually shoot a grouping with this behemoth).

I would guide someone with such a rifle on a Cape Buffalo, provided we got in close enough and the buff presented the correct shot. Not on elephant though.

I remember an article somewhere where someone built a 4 bore and actually hunted buffalo with it, I think in Tanzania if I remember correctly, I will try and find the article..

 

[Russ-F]

Welcome to AH 4 Bore. Excuse the hijack as I know preciously little about large bore shotguns/ smooth bores. It sounds like a lovely battery you have and are building. I never realized Watson Bros used the Westley Richards droplock design on their shotguns. Please post a close up photo of that 7mm Rigby in your profile. I’m a big fan of them. The rifle seems to have a few features resembling an early Brno ZKK600, with the pistolgrip and fore-end checkering pattern, hollow bolt knob, rear receiver pop-up peep sight button notch, rear sight etc. Its difficult to make out the detail as Avatar pictures are of such low resolution.

Regards,
Dewald

Yes welcome.

As noted in the quote above that does look like a BRNO action.

Regards
Russell

 

[WAB]

Cape guns are typically a side x side rifle caliber barrel (fully rifled) and a smooth bore shotgun. They were popular for the colonial market - hence the name. The partially rifled barrels were used on side x side Paradox guns which were designed to shoot a conical bullet or shot from the same barrels. They are extremely difficult to build - as for as I know, only Holland offers them now. They have to regulate like a double rifle, and yet, also throw perfect patterns. My William Evans shoots a three-inch L/R x L/R at 100 meters with a 740 gr conical and perfect modified patterns with 1 1/8 ounces of No. 6 shot.

That is the design I was thinking of, thanks for the correction/clarification. Your William Evans sounds like quite a firearm.

 

[Red Leg]

Yes you are correct.

The rifle has not been built yet and I am sure the accuracy and grouping would be acceptable once done.

If the rifle in the end is only capable of lets say a 9 inch group at 50 meters would that mean a complete no no for buffalo?

Maybe not.

Not ideal but still do able.

That would mean 4 1/2 inch from point of aim at 50 meters. At 25 meters it would be 2 1/4 inch. If used at 25-30 meters as I suggested it would be acceptable. It would not be the ideal situation but if he really wants to shoot a buffalo with it and he uses it within it's and his own limitations it will get the job done. The vital lung area on a buffalo at 25-30 meters is quite big.

Yes it will be a difficult hunt and it is going to take patience to get into position and be patient enough to wait for the correct shot.

The other option would be to adjust the sight to point of aim for one of the barrels, again not ideal but do able and then be aware of where the second barrel will impact.

Rifled barrels or Paradox barrels would be a better option and slugs would be the way to go and not round projectiles.

The smooth bores I have used all have good accuracy, granted they are not 4 bores but they shoot very well and I only use slugs in them and not balls.

Lets see when done what the groupings look like(if one can actually shoot a grouping with this behemoth).

I would guide someone with such a rifle on a Cape Buffalo, provided we got in close enough and the buff presented the correct shot. Not on elephant though.

I remember an article somewhere where someone built a 4 bore and actually hunted buffalo with it, I think in Tanzania if I remember correctly, I will try and find the article..

Truly not meaning to quibble, but that is 4.5 inches from where the rifle is actually pointed on firing - not the “aim point”. Inherent rifle (or musket) accuracy buys insurance against inaccuracy introduced by the shooter. That additional MOA is always there - a little or a lot. Considering that your erstwhile client will have been lugging that cannon around the jesse for a bit, that shooter induced inaccuracy could be meaningful. Though I suppose if one can afford a bespoke 4-bore double shotgun, one can hire a gun bearer - it would be appropriate to the period. Though it should be considerably lighter than a 4 bore rifle.

Look, I love these old things. I have a good friend who has taken buffalo with a 10, 12, and even a 20 bore paradox. (I have taken a brace of warthog with mine.) However, all three of his we’re extraordinarily accurate inside 100 meters, and each was firing specially constructed bullets hand made by Ross Seyfried for the purpose of penetrating a buffalo. I will concede that a hard-cast 4 bore slug tucked low in the chest just behind the foreleg will likely kill any buffalo in Africa. However, that is a pretty precise target even at thirty-meters. I have much less confidence such a projectile would reach both lungs. Certainly not enough that I would want to try it.