375H&H or 458Lott

[Anthony George]

Just my experience, leave the 375 at home or camp for the wifes,
If you are going through process of building a rifle from a 375 to 458Lott, have a look at the 450 Ackley mag or 450 Rigby Both are great cartridges and easily do the work required with no fuss

The 458 Lott can easily shoot well out and do the job required with good proj and practice with well set up rifle and scope etc

I recently took my longest Big Bore shot while hunting at 232m, 458WM and 550grn Woodleigh RN SN, laying prone on flood plain. No issue with hitting a Bull and putting him down.

Most people limit the rifle/cartridge combo with lack of practice or confidence

Today at range I re shot my same 458WM combo at 200m with 9" drop and at 300m was 20" drop and I'd have no qualms taking a Bull at 300m

Relying on the PH to finish your PHK Up is moronic
If I can't take my own animal with out help, then I definitely need to go back and practice, my shooting and related skills

You are your own man and own hunter so in the end it's on you

 

[Rikard87]

Just my experience, leave the 375 at home or camp for the wifes,
If you are going through process of building a rifle from a 375 to 458Lott, have a look at the 450 Ackley mag or 450 Rigby Both are great cartridges and easily do the work required with no fuss

The 458 Lott can easily shoot well out and do the job required with good proj and practice with well set up rifle and scope etc

I recently took my longest Big Bore shot while hunting at 232m, 458WM and 550grn Woodleigh RN SN, laying prone on flood plain. No issue with hitting a Bull and putting him down.

Most people limit the rifle/cartridge combo with lack of practice or confidence

Today at range I re shot my same 458WM combo at 200m with 9" drop and at 300m was 20" drop and I'd have no qualms taking a Bull at 300m

Relying on the PH to finish your PHK Up is moronic
If I can't take my own animal with out help, then I definitely need to go back and practice, my shooting and related skills

You are your own man and own hunter so in the end it's on you

thanks for the input you are right i dont whant to have to rely on my PH to finish the buffalo that would feel like a faliure to me.

 

[Anthony George]

Excellent
My suggestion would be to get the calibre and cartridge you want in the rifle you want and then make it yours by modifying it to suit your needs

I tell lads the same deal, pick the calibre/ cartridge they want and then make the rifle pleasant to shoot and handle

 

[IvW]

ive heard that said plenty of times. yet curiously the most popular elephant cartridge during the height of elephant hunting was the 577 NE.

-matt

Only for some ivory hunters, who also had access to gun bearers to carry these behemoths. Totally impractical and way too much rifle to use on anything else, weight wise, cost wise, recoil wise etc... it is not a good or practical choice for anybody except a PH who hunts a lot of elephant!!

The best caliber for a client to use on elephant or buff would be a 404 Jeff or if they are comfortable with the recoil, a 416 Rigby(or any of the latest ones trying to duplicate it) if not then the good old 375 H&H is the best option.

Yes everybody wants to be like the old time ivory hunters but from a practical point of view in modern times these huge calibers just don't make sense for a visiting client.

 

[IvW]

Just my experience, leave the 375 at home or camp for the wifes,
If you are going through process of building a rifle from a 375 to 458Lott, have a look at the 450 Ackley mag or 450 Rigby Both are great cartridges and easily do the work required with no fuss

The 458 Lott can easily shoot well out and do the job required with good proj and practice with well set up rifle and scope etc

I recently took my longest Big Bore shot while hunting at 232m, 458WM and 550grn Woodleigh RN SN, laying prone on flood plain. No issue with hitting a Bull and putting him down.

Most people limit the rifle/cartridge combo with lack of practice or confidence

Today at range I re shot my same 458WM combo at 200m with 9" drop and at 300m was 20" drop and I'd have no qualms taking a Bull at 300m

Relying on the PH to finish your PHK Up is moronic
If I can't take my own animal with out help, then I definitely need to go back and practice, my shooting and related skills

You are your own man and own hunter so in the end it's on you

Your advice regarding the 450 Ackley or 450 Rigby is good as long as the shooter can handle them.

The 375 H&H kills more Cape buffalo than any other in Africa every year.

The 458 WM with 550 gr bullets is a very poor choice for Cape buffalo. Took you 5 shots to drop a Australian/Asian water buffalo with that combination. Any of the old classic calibers would have done better. It could easily get you killed in Africa on our variety. The 458 WM just does not have the case capacity to shoot the 550 gr bullets at a respectable velocity. Here we hunt them at close range and not out to 200 meters(100 meters would be a very long shot). We don't shoot them well out in Africa.

I would use a 375 H&H, 404 Jeff or 416 Rigby long before I would even consider a 458 WM on cape buffalo.

The 450 Rigby is excellent but not everybody's cup of tea.

 

[Red Leg]

Just my experience, leave the 375 at home or camp for the wifes,
If you are going through process of building a rifle from a 375 to 458Lott, have a look at the 450 Ackley mag or 450 Rigby Both are great cartridges and easily do the work required with no fuss

The 458 Lott can easily shoot well out and do the job required with good proj and practice with well set up rifle and scope etc

I recently took my longest Big Bore shot while hunting at 232m, 458WM and 550grn Woodleigh RN SN, laying prone on flood plain. No issue with hitting a Bull and putting him down.

Most people limit the rifle/cartridge combo with lack of practice or confidence

Today at range I re shot my same 458WM combo at 200m with 9" drop and at 300m was 20" drop and I'd have no qualms taking a Bull at 300m

Relying on the PH to finish your PHK Up is moronic
If I can't take my own animal with out help, then I definitely need to go back and practice, my shooting and related skills

You are your own man and own hunter so in the end it's on you

Seriously? One doesn't get to read this sort nonsense on this site all that often. I mean the poster would have you get a .40 class rifle because a .375 isn't manly enough? Really? And I don't care how diligently a .458 WM is set up with scope, range finder, and any other gizmo, it is not a 200m plus rifle - particularly with a 550 gr bullet. Its practical trajectory in that weight of bullet resembles a howitzer more than a hunting rifle. It is about the last thing I would personally choose for cape buffalo.

The Lott is a far more powerful cartridge. It will handle any buffalo that you will encounter. It is why so many PH's carry it as a back-up rifle for buffalo - typically with open sights which makes it a bit less cumbersome. But that isn't really our job is it?

Your job and my job is to put the first shot as precisely and quickly as we possibly can in exactly the right spot so no one else has to worry about things like back-up shots or following our badly hit, angry animal into the jess. And should you screw up that first shot you should hope your PH has time for a follow-up. Remember, it will be the tracker or the PH who gets stomped in that situation. You'll merely have to carry it around on your conscience.

If you can handle a Lott as effectively and accurately as a .375 - particularly after a long day in the hot sun trailing a herd then have it. Not everyone can - others, like me, don't want to. I own a .404, a .500/.416, and two .375's. I shoot them all well. However, to date, all my buffalo have been taken with a .375. I take it because it is the finest big game hunting package that I own. I don't own a CZ, but my R8 with scope is like carrying a 30-06. It is thumbnail accurate, and the 300 gr TSX, Swift A-Frame, and Woodleigh Hydro have been devastatingly effective on everything they have hit. More importantly, my buffalo hunting has been part of general bag efforts. Stepping off after buffalo can lead to encounters with other game at all sorts of ranges. It is my experience that the .375 is the ideal companion for such a day in the bush - day after day - mile after mile.

But if you want the Lott - by all means get it. The .404 and .500/.416 I noted didn't follow me home on their own volition. But the more I have used all three, the more I return to that special thing Holland & Holland created all those years ago.

 

[K-man]

Seriously? One doesn't get to read this sort nonsense on this site all that often. I mean the poster would have you get a .40 class rifle because a .375 isn't manly enough? Really? And I don't care how diligently a .458 WM is set up with scope, range finder, and any other gizmo, it is not a 200m plus rifle - particularly with a 550 gr bullet. Its practical trajectory in that weight of bullet resembles a howitzer more than a hunting rifle. It is about the last thing I would personally choose for cape buffalo.

The Lott is a far more powerful cartridge. It will handle any buffalo that you will encounter. It is why so many PH's carry it as a back-up rifle for buffalo - typically with open sights which makes it a bit less cumbersome. But that isn't really our job is it?

Your job and my job is to put the first shot as precisely and quickly as we possibly can in exactly the right spot so no one else has to worry about things like back-up shots or following our badly hit, angry animal into the jess. And should you screw up that first shot you should hope your PH has time for a follow-up. Remember, it will be the tracker or the PH who gets stomped in that situation. You'll merely have to carry it around on your conscience.

If you can handle a Lott as effectively and accurately as a .375 - particularly after a long day in the hot sun trailing a herd then have it. Not everyone can - others, like me, don't want to. I own a .404, a .500/.416, and two .375's. I shoot them all well. However, to date, all my buffalo have been taken with a .375. I take it because it is the finest big game hunting package that I own. I don't own a CZ, but my R8 with scope is like carrying a 30-06. It is thumbnail accurate, and the 300 gr TSX, Swift A-Frame, and Woodleigh Hydro have been devastatingly effective on everything they have hit. More importantly, my buffalo hunting has been part of general bag efforts. Stepping off after buffalo can lead to encounters with other game at all sorts of ranges. It is my experience that the .375 is the ideal companion for such a day in the bush - day after day - mile after mile.

But if you want the Lott - by all means get it. The .404 and .500/.416 I noted didn't follow me home on their own volition. But the more I have used all three, the more I return to that special thing Holland & Holland created all those years ago.

Well said. My own experience with cape buffalo is a .375 with a premium bullet in the right place is all thats needed. Mine died in his tracks with one shot at 55 yds. The idea that somehow a .375 is a ladies gun only is a bit out of touch. It is a weapon with both velocity and penetration capable of much larger game than buff.

 

[WAB]

This thread is becoming amusing in a sad sort of way. I shoot both the .375 H&H and the .458 Lott extensively. I have also used both of them in tough situations. As stated previously, the .375 was my go to gun when I lived in Alaska and its performance was and is is stellar. I would never denigrate the cartridge, I love it!

However, the characterization of the Lott by a number of folks in this string as a stopping only gun not appropriate to client hunters is just not accurate. I was just out on the range tonight (about 100 yards from my house), punching steel with the Lott. I am hitting 10" steel pretty close to center every shot at 200. I am printing roughly 3" groups every time on 8" steel at 100. I don't know if my rifle (a custom Model 70) just has a better designed stock than what you are using, but it is not difficult to shoot at all. I have shot plains game very effectively with this rifle out well beyond 100. I can carry this rifle 20 km through the desert scrub and shoot it accurately at the end of the trail. If I couldn't, I would work out harder until I could. If you are not working out to this level before your hunts, you should be.

If the Lott is not for you, fine. But to denigrate and relegate this outstanding cartridge to a PH only round is simply wrong. I will go to my Lott every time when I am after cape buffalo.

 

[IvW]

This thread is becoming amusing in a sad sort of way. I shoot both the .375 H&H and the .458 Lott extensively. I have also used both of them in tough situations. As stated previously, the .375 was my go to gun when I lived in Alaska and its performance was and is is stellar. I would never denigrate the cartridge, I love it!

However, the characterization of the Lott by a number of folks in this string as a stopping only gun not appropriate to client hunters is just not accurate. I was just out on the range tonight (about 100 yards from my house), punching steel with the Lott. I am hitting 10" steel pretty close to center every shot at 200. I am printing roughly 3" groups every time on 8" steel at 100. I don't know if my rifle (a custom Model 70) just has a better designed stock than what you are using, but it is not difficult to shoot at all. I have shot plains game very effectively with this rifle out well beyond 100. I can carry this rifle 20 km through the desert scrub and shoot it accurately at the end of the trail. If I couldn't, I would work out harder until I could. If you are not working out to this level before your hunts, you should be.

If the Lott is not for you, fine. But to denigrate and relegate this outstanding cartridge to a PH only round is simply wrong. I will go to my Lott every time when I am after cape buffalo.

Nobody is knocking the 458 Lott.

Not everybody puts either the effort in or can handle them with competence in which case they are better off using a 404 Jeff or a 375 H&H.

A good 375 H&H bullet in the right place is better than a 458 Lott bullet in the wrong place. Unfortunately most cannot handle the 458 Lott with a scope, it is just the way it is.

Of course a 458 Bullet from a Lott in the right place would be better than a 375 H&H bullet in the same place, although in both cases you should have a dead buffalo.

Whatever you choose, make sure you can handle it otherwise step down.

458WM with 550 gr bullets is still a very poor choice for a DG hunt in Africa.

 

[Anthony George]

Your advice regarding the 450 Ackley or 450 Rigby is good as long as the shooter can handle them.

The 375 H&H kills more Cape buffalo than any other in Africa every year.

The 458 WM with 550 gr bullets is a very poor choice for Cape buffalo. Took you 5 shots to drop a Australian/Asian water buffalo with that combination. Any of the old classic calibers would have done better. It could easily get you killed in Africa on our variety. The 458 WM just does not have the case capacity to shoot the 550 gr bullets at a respectable velocity. Here we hunt them at close range and not out to 200 meters(100 meters would be a very long shot). We don't shoot them well out in Africa.

I would use a 375 H&H, 404 Jeff or 416 Rigby long before I would even consider a 458 WM on cape buffalo.

The 450 Rigby is excellent but not everybody's cup of tea.

As I mentioned this is only my experience


Agreed, as long as the shooter gets to practice prior and uses good shooting technique.


Yes, as I wrote in the story I took that Bull for meat, I took him because I can ! and I dropped him with every shot ! Unfortunately the first shot went high of all things, down side of shooting in prone position out on flood plain.


I use that combo because it works, and most of my hunting is from 7m out to normally 60 -80m depending. But I like the idea of being able to secure my dinner at almost any range that the little 458 is capable


Muzzle Vel for my combo is 2070fps over my RCBS chrony at 5m


As a side note, I am not a professional guide or run a safari operation, just a hunter who hunts for his dinner and fun

Also that Bull was not my first but in fact, my 54th Bull in 4 1/2 years, not including all the others prior to those, my experience is my own. But this is not a comp ! Still alive and healthy


It’s funny my hunting mate ventured over last year to chase a cape Buff, he took a cracker Bull with one shot from a 416RM he borrowed off the guide, the Bull went 15m and tipped over…done. Why ?? because he shot it as if he was here doing same thing.


When he returned, I asked him how it went and what he thought of the Cape Bulls, “ I can’t See What the Fuss is about “ was his reply, but then again he has taken more Buff Bulls than I have and he is only a hunter. Now this may not be a typical occurance, but he is not a typical novice or short time hunter. Experience plays a nassive part.


In regards to classic cals, If I'd have done exactly the same with my 458Lott or 404 Jeffery the outcome would be exactly the same. These Big coastal Bulls are tough and can absorb huge amounts of punishment. The first shot actually penetrated to the off side shoulder and we found the projectile under the skin. Not bad for a 458WM


Don’t let the Romance and stories of the past blur the reason why the 375HH has taken more Buff in Africa, it most likely a reflection of the clients and not the cartridge or animal hunted

What I see regularly is other hunters trying to pass on their insecurities and shortfalls onto other hunters, where instead should be encouraging them to just go and have a go and see

Any just my coppers worth

 

[JPbowhunter]

On the topic of calibres for buff, here's a link to the buff culling days. All done with 308

 

[Scott CWO]

I love my .458 Lott and the recoil never bothers me in the field. There's no such thing as too dead. Sounds like a fun project.

 

[HWL]

Just my experience, leave the 375 at home or camp for the wifes,

What a great point....


HWL

 

[JPbowhunter]

I apologise for pulling things off topic but while talking big calibres. Do people use barnes bonded or tsx for dangerous game in these big bore rifles? Never hear much of it

 

[BenKK]

JPbowhunter, I love that video! Lots of footage of my old stomping grounds, when I used-to hunt with some older guys who worked with that operation.

By the way, a 375H&H is a great buffalo rifle and a great all-rounder.

I would like to try the big Barnes TSXs in the .500 Jeffery but I see they only make 570 grains or 600 grains (can’t recall exactly) and I just would like to check if they’d fit in the magazine. I might ask on one of the Australian forums if anybody had one I could buy and sample.

 

[Foxi]

its a mistake to belive you have an knock out effect by shoulder- and chest shots mostly,when you take the big African caliber (.450 up) .
Just take a look on the videos of Mark S.
Ok, not the most reputable scource, but he always took very heavy calibers .
An other mistake to belive is,that a Safaritourist can stop a buffalo, when he attacks.
We all think that,we all. But you can shoot at home so good as a member of an army sniper unit.
In the bush is an other life at home.
No normal guest was ever in the situation, when a wounded buff comes like a train on 5 meters out of the reed.
Be glad about an experienced PH on you side.
My problem with the buffalo hunts was getting close to the old guys, not fending off an attack.
Only a careful life has made a buffalo grow old.

A buff doesn't need a.458 Lott, when you are going once,ore twice in your life on him.
I would prefer the gun I can handle best.
If its balanced ,take the Lott.

Only my two cents,not more.
Foxi

 

[mdwest]

I apologise for pulling things off topic but while talking big calibres. Do people use barnes bonded or tsx for dangerous game in these big bore rifles? Never hear much of it

I've got 300gr TSX for my 375 H&H and 350gr TSX for my 416 Taylor.. Both will be getting used on cape buff in June 2019..

My decision was made based on how well TSX shoots in all of my rifles (I have yet to load it in any caliber, for any gun, and not have it demonstrate accuracy and perform well), and on numerous recommendations made by both PH's and by members here for use on DG..

 

[WAB]

its a mistake to belive you have an knock out effect by shoulder- and chest shots mostly,when you take the big African caliber (.450 up) .
Just take a look on the videos of Mark S.
Ok, not the most reputable scource, but he always took very heavy calibers .
An other mistake to belive is,that a Safaritourist can stop a buffalo, when he attacks.
We all think that,we all. But you can shoot at home so good as a member of an army sniper unit.
In the bush is an other life at home.
No normal guest was ever in the situation, when a wounded buff comes like a train on 5 meters out of the reed.
Be glad about an experienced PH on you side.
My problem with the buffalo hunts was getting close to the old guys, not fending off an attack.
Only a careful life has made a buffalo grow old.

A buff doesn't need a.458 Lott, when you are going once,ore twice in your life on him.
I would prefer the gun I can handle best.
If its balanced ,take the Lott.

Only my two cents,not more.
Foxi

I will not watch Mark Sullivan videos. I visited with him in Fairbanks when he was there for an SCI dinner. He told me straight up that he shot to intentionally wound buffalo in order to get a charge on the follow up. He was bold enough to tell the entire audience that we should try this stunt on grizzly. This is wrong on so many levels I won't even try to get into it. Suffice to say that we did not reach agreement on hunting ethics.

 

[Foxi]

there are many scenes, where his clients are shooting on a buffs shoulder with big double rilfles .He did it also in not so less cases.
Only this is was I ment.
Ultimately we kill buffalo for our pleasure,a terrible word, but it is so.
Then it must be short and painless.
Everything else is non-negotiable for a real hunter.

 

[IvW]

Also that Bull was not my first but in fact, my 54th Bull in 4 1/2 years, not including all the others prior to those, my experience is my own.

54 is good going for a non professional, it is less than the total DG I shot in my first year as an apprentice, so yes experience counts.

and I dropped him with every shot !

Pity he did not stay dropped!

Unfortunately the first shot went high of all things, down side of shooting in prone position out on flood plain.

Shooting prone never affected where my first shot went. Only reason the shot went high is due to overcompensating for the distance. If you were using a scoped 375 H&H I bet you would have been able to place your first shot where it should have gone.

The first shot actually penetrated to the off side shoulder and we found the projectile under the skin. Not bad for a 458WM

Well so it should have nothing much in the way with a too high shot over the spine! 375 H&H or 458 Lott would probably have exited on that shot.

Don’t let the Romance and stories of the past blur the reason why the 375HH has taken more Buff in Africa, it most likely a reflection of the clients and not the cartridge or animal hunted

I don't understand this statement. No romance and stories here. the 375 H&H kills more DG in AFrica each year than any other caliber. It is the most recommended caliber for first time clients to bring for DG. In a competent clients hands it can very effectively kill all african DG. It still is the King of the medium bores. Yes there are more effective cartridges to use as long as the client is competent with them but the good old 375 H&H will do it all.

What I see regularly is other hunters trying to pass on their insecurities and shortfalls onto other hunters, where instead should be encouraging them to just go and have a go and see

Insecurities and shortfalls!! LOL, yes sure go out and see by all means use what you prefer but I can assure you that a 458Wm loaded with 550 gr bullets is not the greatest option for African DG.

PS. I think your chrony is bust or move it a bit further away it may be measuring unburnt powder and not the bullet! lol