.375 vs .404 jeffry

[Gert Odendaal]

A .375 is like a steak knife bought from Target whereas a .404J is like a hand forged knife with a multi-folded steel blade made by a craftsman for a craftsman. The .375 will get the job done with speed and efficiency but with the .404J you'll get the job done with pleasure, efficiency and a sense of pride, history and ownership.

When the chips are down I'd rather face an incoming jumbo with a .404J than a .375H&H.

Then again I only know enough to not put diesel in a petrol motor.

When the chips are down you need to concentrate on a brain shot ..the caliber is not going to keep you from being gored or impaled ....375 or 404 will not stop it with a poor shot placement...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Members it really is always great to have discussions like this , it enhances our knowledge and perspectives in regards to what we experiencing about the rifles we hunt with..I believe every rifle has a significance to it`s owner of how he uses it, hunt with it and experiencing it`s pro`s and con`s...what is cast in stone is that you will not find a poor hunting rifle in today`s technological age we are living in and any big bore hunting rifle will kill any animal walking this planet...dangerous game are vulnerable to any high power rifle....the caliber really does not matter to the dangerous game animal you shoot and kill....

 

[Jack Stevens]

This is the best explanation I have read, regarding the "Recoil Impulse, Velocity of Recoil, and Energy of recoil. The "Moment of Recoil, Rifle Balance and Recoil Speed makes a lot of difference for a slight framed (skinny) guy like me.

I read some years ago, that a British Ordinance Officer (can't remember his name), that claimed most men can shoot a rifle comfortably up to 17 Pounds Feet/ Second of Recoil Velocity.

I think this applies for medium bores as well, as many shooters feel the sharp recoil effect of Weatherby Ammo. Almost all are greater than the 17 pounds feet per second level.

When I ran the numbers on a .416 Rigby (410 grains at 2350 fps) and a downloaded .416 Remington (400 grains at 2150, old school Nitro Express), it made a lot of sense.

The 400 grain at 2150 was right at 17 pounds feet per second recoil velocity, and I can shoot this accurately for several rounds.
The .416 Rigby, 2350 fps was about 19 pounds feet per second, too much for me to shoot accurately after 3 shots.

Exactly. …. Good to see someone gets it.

That's why I shoot a 450/400 Nitro. But I really want a .404 Jeffery, for the nostalgia factor.

That’s exactly why Jeffery designed and loaded the .404 as he did. He took the already-proven killing power of the 450/400 Nitro in dbl rifles - having a similar velocity/energy level (fps/fpe) - and created a cartridge suitable to fit and feed in a Mauser-pattern bolt-action rifle.

Operating roughly within the same velocity window as the 450/400, or a bit hotter (2000fps to 2150-ish fps), the .404 validated Jeffery’s vision of an analog cartridge for magazine rifles, one that could be reliably used under field conditions to stop and kill all manner of large DG. That’s the undisputed historical record.

As originally loaded, it went on to become a highly successful killer to the same degree as the 450/400, while imparting the mildest felt-recoil of any of the .400-class cartridges, … at least until recent years when someone thought it would be a swell idea to make the .404J into a 416 Rigby.

 

[Christian Davis]

A .375 is like a steak knife bought from Target whereas a .404J is like a hand forged knife with a multi-folded steel blade made by a craftsman for a craftsman. The .375 will get the job done with speed and efficiency but with the .404J you'll get the job done with pleasure, efficiency and a sense of pride, history and ownership.

When the chips are down I'd rather face an incoming jumbo with a .404J than a .375H&H.

Then again I only know enough to not put diesel in a petrol motor.

FREE SAFARI, JOHN RIGBY BIG GAME DSB 375 H&H MAUSER GRADE 8 WOOD SWAROVSKI - LAYAWAY AVAILABLE

FREE SAFARI, JOHN RIGBY BIG GAME DSB 375 H&H MAUSER GRADE 8 WOOD SWAROVSKI - LAYAWAY AVAILABLE for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

I'll have to wait for Target to have these steak knives on sale!

 

[WAB]

When the chips are down you need to concentrate on a brain shot ..the caliber is not going to keep you from being gored or impaled ....375 or 404 will not stop it with a poor shot placement...

Good point Gert. I brain shot a big Botswana bull elephant with a .375 H&H shooting 350 gr Woodleigh solids at 2,300 fps. I don’t think the skull of that elephant even slowed that bullet down! I left some with a friend who had to do control work on his ranch. He reported full length pass throughs on cow elephant. That’s some serious penetration!

 

[Pieter van Jaarsveld]

Bengal Bullets .404/.424" diameter WFN bullet will make for even cheaper practice time as well as being an effective hunting HC projectile as well. I'm expecting a 500-ct order to arrive any day now.

If you order in volume, the price per bullet drops accordingly. A 250ct order works out to about $0.53 cents per bullet.

.404 (.424") - 390 Grain LFNGC — Bengal Bullets

390 grain Long Flat Nose Gas Check sized to .424.” Meplat is .26”and nose length is .62.”

www.bengalbullets.com

The owner of BB, "Keith," is using a new mould, so along with the coating and the GC, the slug ends up weighing right at 400grns.

Just FYI ...

Do you have load data for these Jack? Looking to push a 400gr at around 2300fps

 

[Jack Stevens]

Do you have load data for these Jack? Looking to push a 400gr at around 2300fps

Noop, still waiting on the bullets. But I’ll start with the low-end .404J load data and work up. I’ll post back here or in a new thread with a review of how they performed.

 

[RLL]

Cutting Edge in Idaho makes quite a variety of .423 bullets that should make my 404 Jeffery quite "versatile." 257 gr should have some range. 300, 325, and 350 gr are also available. I'm thinking 325 gr would be quite versatile. However, I've never seen loading data for anything but 400 gr. I'm a bit concerned about recoil with my history of retina problems so seriously considering ordering some lightweights (I have an ample supply of Barnes 400 gr that came with my reloading kit). Anyone have experience with Cutting Edge?

Not in 404 but Yes, plenty of experience with CEB and Hammers in 300, 338, 375, 416 and 458. You won’t be disappointed by their performance.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Good point Gert. I brain shot a big Botswana bull elephant with a .375 H&H shooting 350 gr Woodleigh solids at 2,300 fps. I don’t think the skull of that elephant even slowed that bullet down! I left some with a friend who had to do control work on his ranch. He reported full length pass throughs on cow elephant. That’s some serious penetration!

Yes, few calibers has the penetration capabilities of a .375 H&H Magnum bullet. The .375 H&H Magnum to me is the perfect versatile hunting rifle . I build mine a few years ago and it shoots beautifully for sure..

 

[jlb1036]

The most importat point should be shot placement and been abe to handle the rifle with upmost confidence when the time arrive for the shot and follow up shots the animal is not aware if your caliber or bullet weight even les all the mathematical numbers.
But i would say the 375 more ideal cause easy it is to find ammo in most remote locations and more variety stick with plain 300grs hornady dgx/dgs are excellent i shot 2 buffalo in SA last year with excellent results both the solid and dgx were not recovered as it penetrated all the way through the massive bodies .

 

[Hunting Hitman]

The fanboy enthusiasm for the 375 H&H has been glorified on this website since it started. Nobody doubts it’s effectiveness in hunting dangerous game but that’s where the conversation should end.
It is not the best weapon to hunt dangerous game but it certainly works.
At, this point the fans all jump in and claim that’s not true and it’s almost the perfect weapon…Well I for one do not agree.
Dangerous game should be hunted with at least a 40 caliber as long as the hunter can handle the recoil and frankly with sufficient practice this shouldn’t be an issue.
I refuse to be lumped in with the “most hunters that come to hunt Africa Can’t handle/shoot their rife”. I can and do handle my rifles extremely well and have no problem shooting plains game out to 300 yards with any of my 40 cals. Now 50 caliber rifles have a little less effective range but still would have no issues shooting my 505 Gibbs out to 200 yards with accuracy. All of these weapons are better choices for dangerous game and really thats elephant, cape, and rhino since Lion, Leopard are thinned skin and fairly easy to kill with any well,placed shot.
Sorry for the Saturday morning rant and I’m sure the fanboys will be out in full defense of the 375 H&H but it’s not optimal it’s adequate.
Before anyone loses their mind I will add that I own 4 375 H&H rifle/barrels and my wife and kids shoot them well although now that my sons are older they are gravitating to Dad’s guns…40 cal and up.
Happy Saturday and enjoy the popcorn!

HH

 

[Jack Stevens]

The fanboy enthusiasm for the 375 H&H has been glorified on this website since it started. Nobody doubts it’s effectiveness in hunting dangerous game but that’s where the conversation should end.
It is not the best weapon to hunt dangerous game but it certainly works.
At, this point the fans all jump in and claim that’s not true and it’s almost the perfect weapon…Well I for one do not agree.
Dangerous game should be hunted with at least a 40 caliber as long as the hunter can handle the recoil and frankly with sufficient practice this shouldn’t be an issue.
I refuse to be lumped in with the “most hunters that come to hunt Africa Can’t handle/shoot their rife”. I can and do handle my rifles extremely well and have no problem shooting plains game out to 300 yards with any of my 40 cals. Now 50 caliber rifles have a little less effective range but still would have no issues shooting my 505 Gibbs out to 200 yards with accuracy. All of these weapons are better choices for dangerous game and really thats elephant, cape, and rhino since Lion, Leopard are thinned skin and fairly easy to kill with any well,placed shot.
Sorry for the Saturday morning rant and I’m sure the fanboys will be out in full defense of the 375 H&H but it’s not optimal it’s adequate.
Before anyone loses their mind I will add that I own 4 375 H&H rifle/barrels and my wife and kids shoot them well although now that my sons are older they are gravitating to Dad’s guns…40 cal and up.
Happy Saturday and enjoy the popcorn!
HH

What .400-class rifles do you own/shoot? Just curious.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The fanboy enthusiasm for the 375 H&H has been glorified on this website since it started. Nobody doubts it’s effectiveness in hunting dangerous game but that’s where the conversation should end.
It is not the best weapon to hunt dangerous game but it certainly works.
At, this point the fans all jump in and claim that’s not true and it’s almost the perfect weapon…Well I for one do not agree.
Dangerous game should be hunted with at least a 40 caliber as long as the hunter can handle the recoil and frankly with sufficient practice this shouldn’t be an issue.
I refuse to be lumped in with the “most hunters that come to hunt Africa Can’t handle/shoot their rife”. I can and do handle my rifles extremely well and have no problem shooting plains game out to 300 yards with any of my 40 cals. Now 50 caliber rifles have a little less effective range but still would have no issues shooting my 505 Gibbs out to 200 yards with accuracy. All of these weapons are better choices for dangerous game and really thats elephant, cape, and rhino since Lion, Leopard are thinned skin and fairly easy to kill with any well,placed shot.
Sorry for the Saturday morning rant and I’m sure the fanboys will be out in full defense of the 375 H&H but it’s not optimal it’s adequate.
Before anyone loses their mind I will add that I own 4 375 H&H rifle/barrels and my wife and kids shoot them well although now that my sons are older they are gravitating to Dad’s guns…40 cal and up.
Happy Saturday and enjoy the popcorn!

HH

Seems like a fair assessment.

I have always questioned the benefits of a lot of time at the range, especially with heavy recoil rifles. Seems it can be counterproductive because it may, and in my experience almost always does, promote flinch. Shooter does need to be familiar with the trigger, but that can be easily accomplished in the comfort of his living room dry firing (just pull the curtains so the neighbors don't think you're nuts ... or leave curtains open if they already know you are nuts). Dry firing is a lot cheaper than wasting precious components at the range. And dry firing does not encourage flinch: it inhibits it. I sight my rifle at the range to the desired maximum distance and go home. But I also do a LOT of dry fire practice at home. Helps with breathing and mounting too.

 

[Inline6]

It is definitely interesting to read all the points of view.

I 100% agree with @WAB humility seems to be getting lost on this board, especially in the last several months. I'm not sure why that is...

Just because something works a few times doesn't mean it will work all the time. New technology in bullets and powder will make a difference. We will always have people that believe only the old ways work and we will have the opposite thought on the extreme other end. The right answer could be both or something in between. Be honest with ourselves very few on here have killed 100s of DG animals to be a world authority. Alot have killed a few, those experiences we share with one another to build our education. We as a collective can add up to the hundreds or thousands of animals taken. What works for me may fail for someone else. That's how we learn, unfortunately the way we address one another can make the learning process counter productive.

Food for thought, I enjoy this site for the wealth of knowledge and the people willing to have a civil exchange of ideas. Hope new members will read and take note.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

What .400-class rifles do you own/shoot? Just curious.

In Bolt action:
404 Jeff
416 Rigby
458 Lott

In Doubles:
470 Nitro Express

HH

 

[Gert Odendaal]

In Bolt action:
404 Jeff
416 Rigby
458 Lott

In Doubles:
470 Nitro Express

HH

HH, your order of calibers in size is not correct:
416 Rigby
then the
404 Jeffery
.458 Lott

.416 Rigby is a smaller diameter than the 404 Jefery ( .423)
The 404 Jeffery being my favorite rifle when I hunt.....

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Maybe while taking a look at this thread
.375 vs 404 says it all ..the 404 being a .40 caliber and lager than the .375 caliber..it means the 404 Jeffery is the larger caliber and wins this comparison.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

...

Food for thought, I enjoy this site for the wealth of knowledge and the people willing to have a civil exchange of ideas. Hope new members will read and take note.

I think some veteran members also should read and take note.

Fifty-nine years ago I started hunting. I took to it with a passion almost immediately. But I was raised in a middle class home by parents who were raised in the Great Depression. For us hunting was more than a hobby/source of entertainment, it was a means of economic survival. My first job was working in a local sporting goods store. In those days anyone who practiced the "gutless method" was viewed as a wasteful slob hunter. Now everyone does it. Last year my dogs couldn't hunt pheasants half a day anywhere in Montana without getting into a rotten pile of deer bones. Relatively few people back then owned more than one hunting rifle. It was my experience growing up that the folks in my community who had to have "high caliber" hunting rifles were the ones who needed to be perceived as "high caliber." Optometrists, washed out teachers, doctors, lawyers, and such wannabe community big shots. Often short stature and/or obese. These were the guys who had to have overblown Weatherby magnums to hunt elk or custom 240 Gibbs to shoot pronghorn or 44 mag sidearm for bear defense (while road hunting deer). Now it seems everyone over here must have a different gun for every species of critter or even different weeks of hunting season. It's not the way I was raised. Not that the new ways are wrong, but am I wrong for clinging to the old ways? It worked for fifty years. Why mess with it?

What I find interesting, almost amusing, is the different culture of "change" on the two sides of the pond. Over here it's all about tech "advancement." Electronic scopes that can be "dialed in" for 1K yard shots (like that is "hunting"?), cameras to spy on game 24/7, drones, chronographs, wind meters, etc, etc. And the "advancements" in rifle technology ... sometimes I wonder if we shouldn't just come up with a new name for these things. Like when rifles replaced muskets as "guns."

In Africa the culture of change has been to step back to the "romance" of former times ... even though many of the professionals of that era had abandoned many of those now cherished romantic notions. For me, I go to Africa to hunt a good hunt and to enjoy beautiful and interesting topography and people. And, of course, the quantity and diversity of game is like nothing over here. I'm a historian with a house full of antiques I have restored. I do appreciate history but I also live in reality. There are advancements in technology that I don't need to be a better hunter. Trail cams might help me find where the better trophies are hanging out. But that's the camera doing the hunting, not me. When I find a good animal to shoot over here, I can take ALL the credit. My PH in Africa deserves most of the credit when I'm over there. He finds the animals, I shoot them. Credit ratio to me is about 80/20 but of course clients usually get 100%. I wish I could hunt alone in Africa but I understand and accept that it's too risky. Anyway, guided hunting fits the African "romance" culture.

Some technological advancements in hunting are acceptable to me if they make it more humane. I will not hesitate to use a cartridge with lighter bullet and less recoil if it provides the same potential to kill swiftly as a proven classic caliber/cartridge. Does that make me less "high caliber"? Perhaps. Is it important? Not to me ... and not to the animal that died quickly.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

HH, your order of calibers in size is not correct:
416 Rigby
then the
404 Jeffery
.458 Lott

.416 Rigby is a smaller diameter than the 404 Jefery ( .423)
The 404 Jeffery being my favorite rifle when I hunt.....

This is 100% correct although I was not attempting to give the size by caliber by smallest to biggest. I hope my listing of the rifles I own in this category did not confuse anyone…

HH

 

[Gert Odendaal]

This is 100% correct although I was not attempting to give the size by caliber by smallest to biggest. I hope my listing of the rifles I own in this category did not confuse anyone…

HH

HH I would have done the same ..since my 404 Jeffery is my most loved rifle for hunting, then the .375H&H Magnum rifle..at the last position my .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer , although all three really shoots very well...but the 1931 Westley Richards 404 Jeffery is just a rifle in a class of it`s own , open sights extremely accurate as well.