.375 vs .404 jeffry

[Gert Odendaal]

I have loaded 404 Jeff to a bit over 2400 fps (on my chrono) out of a 23" PacNor barrel. But I found the sweet spot for accuracy and recoil at 2250 fps, which worked quite well and was 'shootable' in my rifle (weight 10 lbs.).

I think you meant AA 5744, which I used with PC cast lead bullets for practice rounds. These rounds are easy to shoot and print to the same POI as my hunting loads at DG shooting distances.

Nevada Mike, I agree with you:
First you have a 404 Jeffery and therefor you can give a valid opinion. ( Jack Stevens does not indicate that he shoots and own a 404 Jeffery to be able to give a valid opinion, I a awaiting conformation from him in regards of him having his own 404 Jeffery)
Second point: you are explaining what loads works for you and why it works so good for you since you shoot your 404 Jeffery frequently.

Cast bullets with gas checks are the only type of bullet that will give you a margin of less financial spending when practicing with your 404 Jeffery .

I totally agree with your view on this matter as a owner of a 404 Jeffery who shoots it frequently and hunts with it large antelope like eland I really like hunting with my 404 Jeffery..dangerous game to me is just too expensive here in South Africa to hunt.So I would probably never have the chance to hunt buffalo or elephant but it does not keep me from hunting table fair game with my 404 Jeffery.

 

[Jack Stevens]

I have loaded 404 Jeff to a bit over 2400 fps (on my chrono) out of a 23" PacNor barrel. But I found the sweet spot for accuracy and recoil at 2250 fps, which worked quite well and was 'shootable' in my rifle (weight 10 lbs.).

I think you meant AA 5744, which I used with PC cast lead bullets for practice rounds. These rounds are easy to shoot and print to the same POI as my hunting loads at DG shooting distances.

Yes, AA 5744 is what I meant. Thanks for catching that. And I will be using that propellant initially to test the 400grn/.424 dia coated WFNGC boolits that are inbound from Bengal Bullets.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Quoting these historical correct written information on a Google search does not make you the author of this knowledge at all..try to reference recent data and reloading information in the current 2023 era will be more suitable to try and make a valid point, I presume you have a 404 Jeffery that you shoot frequently and hunt with it ???Please provide your reloading data for your 404 Jeffery ??

Dude, if you’d actually researched my post-history on this board (before posting your knee-jerk, semi-coherent response above), you’d know that I own and shoot an AHR-built .404 rifle, a full Wayne Jacobs custom build, and have posted various pics in numerous threads about it. It can also be seen in the Media section.

The examples you refer to is from the early 1900 to 1950 era.....a lot about new generation bullets and powder has changed and developed..you are not in 1900 or 1950 era now, you are in 2023 where technology has developed indestructible bullets , super fast burning and slow burning powder...velocity of a 404 Jeffery with a 400 gn bullet is 2300f/s ....the 2100f/s idea is a long gone idea and practice ...

Thanks for making my argument for me.

Today’s better .404/.423” bullets clearly mean the .404 will kill DG better and faster at the designer’s original velocity specs than it did with Jeffery’s early bullets or even those used in later decades, certainly including .423 Jeff bullets produced up to 1960.

Practicing with a 404 Jeffery by using lighter bullets does not have any advantage at all..the brass , bullets and powder is still being use and it is still expensive ..

Wrong … again.

If you are not comfortable shooting a 404 Jeffery full loads 400gn at 2300 f/s then do refrain from shooting this caliber rifle and buy a 9.3 x 62 or lighter caliber. It is a dangerous game rifle ....made to put down dangerous game , do not use it with lighter bullets it does not make sense ...except if you only shoot thin skin game and you want to use 350gn bullets .

LOL!

No, … and still wrong. With modern bullet technology, to include not only jacketed bullets but also the modern coated HC gas-checked FN boolits, the .404J will reliably kill all the same animals within the cartridge’s original velocity ranges that it is historically credited with killing with the ancient bullets.

There is a reason for having small bore rifle , medium bore rifles , large bore rifles ....since there are small game, medium game and large game then dangerous game ...

Irrelevant to the point.

The Jeffery was always intended to be a .400-class cartridge of modest velocity since it was created to be the magazine-rifle analog to Jeffery’s equally mild double-rifle cartridge, the 450/400 Nitro.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

At what velocity are you shooting a 400gn bullet from your rifle? Since it is unclear why you pointed out shooting a 400 gn bullet at 2300f/s is wrong?? The old 2150f/s with a 400gn bullet being the correct load specs, according to you and your literature . The bottom line being the 404 Jeffery is a Dangerous game hunting rifle, shooting a 400gn bullet at 2350f/s design to bring down dangerous game ...ask what muzzle velocity with a 400 gn bullet are 404 Jeffery owners shooting ...I am sure you will find not to be your 2100f/s as you pointed out.

The different classes of game , small, medium, heavy game animals is relevant to this discussion, the different caliber`s are designated to hunting these different weight /body mass of hunting regulations .
For you it may be irrelevant but there are numerous reasons why game body weight is tied to caliber designations .

Downloading it to shoot lighter bullets to make it easier to shoot with less recoil make no sense at all. Practicing with lighter bullets ( except cast bullets ) will not make it cheaper or teach you how to handle recoil , using shooting sticks is the only way to practice your shooting skills with a 404 Jeffery shooting 400gn bullets at 2350f/s when preparing for dangerous game hunting for elephant and buffalo. It is your choice to use light bullets but like any sport you need to practice as you play..

If you are not comfortable shooting 400 gn bullets at 2350f/s when hunting elephant and buffalo then move back to the .375 caliber.

 

[Jack Stevens]

At what velocity are you shooting a 400gn bullet from your rifle? Since it is unclear why you pointed out shooting a 400 gn bullet at 2300f/s is wrong??

What I said earlier wasn’t “unclear.” You just didn’t comprehend it.

I load and shoot modern 400grn bullets at original Jeffery velocities, which can be as low as 1975fps from a 24” barrel to an upper level of 2150fps. That same velocity killed tons of DG animals of all species in Africa in the decades following the cartridge‘s introduction. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Probably because you’re utterly ignorant of the .404’s actual use in the field.

Hornady’s 200-250fps increase in nominal muzzle velocity (to 2300fps) was unnecessary, for the simple reason that the increase doesn’t result in (or translate into) provably superior killing capability over that which historically occurred for decades with the 400grn load at the original velocity. A dead elephant is still a dead.

The greater velocity of Hornady’s modern loading “improves” on nothing while significantly increasing muzzle blast and felt-recoil. For the occasional hunter, both of those effects, in turn, tend to cause “flenching ” and anticipatory trigger-jerking.

The old 2150f/s with a 400gn bullet being the correct load specs, according to you and your literature . The bottom line being the 404 Jeffery is a Dangerous game hunting rifle, shooting a 400gn bullet at 2350f/s design to bring down dangerous game ...ask what muzzle velocity with a 400 gn bullet are 404 Jeffery owners shooting ...I am sure you will find not to be your 2100f/s as you pointed out.

The different classes of game , small, medium, heavy game animals is relevant to this discussion, the different caliber`s are designated to hunting these different weight /body mass of hunting regulations .
For you it may be irrelevant but there are numerous reasons why game body weight is tied to caliber designations .

Downloading it to shoot lighter bullets to make it easier to shoot with less recoil make no sense at all. Practicing with lighter bullets ( except cast bullets ) will not make it cheaper or teach you how to handle recoil , using shooting sticks is the only way to practice your shooting skills with a 404 Jeffery shooting 400gn bullets at 2350f/s when preparing for dangerous game hunting for elephant and buffalo. It is your choice to use light bullets but like any sport you need to practice as you play..

If you are not comfortable shooting 400 gn bullets at 2350f/s when hunting elephant and buffalo then move back to the .375 caliber.

Repeating yourself doesn’t increase the validity of your argument. You were wrong before and you’re still wrong in this post.

The .404J was always a “dangerous game” cartridge and it still is even at original velocities. More velocity doesn’t make it a “more dangerous game” cartridge …. although by some bizarro reasoning you seem to think so.

Tootles.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Yes you are correct, I understand now, you are recoil shy, not able to shoot a 404 Jeffery using a 400gn bullet at 2350f/s properly and accurately as all hunters who hunt large body dangerous game like a buffalo and an elephant where penetration is the only imperative and requirement to get to the vitals as deep as you can especially through the honeycomb structure in a bull elephant`s head with a frontal shot.

Using the minimum requirements in reloading to hunt elephant and buffalo with your 404 Jefery might just make you another statistic on the revenge board of the African hunter killer , the buffalo ...

You need to learn how to shoot a 404 Jeffery , using a 400gn bullet at 2350f/t second and learn to shoot it very accurate since I suspect when doing real hunting in the African bush walking on the track of a buffalo or elephant will keep you from being trampled ...
I suppose it is just a case of ignorance when a person want to argue your point of minimum violence when hunting dangerous game by reloading to the minimum velocity when you have to drive that 400gn bullet at 1950f/s or 2150f/s in an environment where you have to shoot through thick bush and sometimes not even see a buffalo or elephant `s outlines in a dark shade ....

Learn to shoot the 404 Jeffery properly, fast, cycling the bolt as fast as you can while still shoot very accurate at 50meters to 80meters through bush and scrub.. learn to handle recoil, ...do not put all your hope on the "great killer of dangerous game "the 404 Jeffery that killed thousands of elephant and buffalo with so low recoil that even the skinny african trackers used it ....if you can not master this, keep to the 6.5x55 calibers , and shoot medium game instead.

 

[John458Lott]

Yes you are correct, I understand now, you are recoil shy, not able to shoot a 404 Jeffery using a 400gn bullet at 2350f/s properly and accurately as all hunters who hunt large body dangerous game like a buffalo and an elephant where penetration is the only imperative and requirement to get to the vitals as deep as you can especially through the honeycomb structure in a bull elephant`s head with a frontal shot.

Using the minimum requirements in reloading to hunt elephant and buffalo with your 404 Jefery might just make you another statistic on the revenge board of the African hunter killer , the buffalo ...

You need to learn how to shoot a 404 Jeffery , using a 400gn bullet at 2350f/t second and learn to shoot it very accurate since I suspect when doing real hunting in the African bush walking on the track of a buffalo or elephant will keep you from being trampled ...
I suppose it is just a case of ignorance when a person want to argue your point of minimum violence when hunting dangerous game by reloading to the minimum velocity when you have to drive that 400gn bullet at 1950f/s or 2150f/s in an environment where you have to shoot through thick bush and sometimes not even see a buffalo or elephant `s outlines in a dark shade ....

Learn to shoot the 404 Jeffery properly, fast, cycling the bolt as fast as you can while still shoot very accurate at 50meters to 80meters through bush and scrub.. learn to handle recoil, ...do not put all your hope on the "great killer of dangerous game "the 404 Jeffery that killed thousands of elephant and buffalo with so low recoil that even the skinny african trackers used it ....if you can not master this, keep to the 6.5x55 calibers , and shoot medium game instead.

To each their own! I don't think you can say that 2350fps is the correct load with the 400gr either nor is 2150fps. I think 2150fps was a common speed for a lot of the big bores historically but with modern powder can be easily exceed but is there any need?

It's up to the shooter and what the rifle likes and finding a load that "regulates" between softs and solids.

In my 404 Jeffery I load my Woodleigh 400 gr softs to 2140 fps and use the same charge for the Woodleigh Solids but they go a little faster but not much. Worked on 2 Buffalo and penetration not an issue.

The big benefit is that it actually recoils in a shoulder friendly manner and in my guns which are about 1oz difference in weight I actually prefer the recoil pulse of the 404 vs a 375 shooting 300gr at 2550fps. Less sharp is the best way I can put it.

But as I say to each their own. Given great accuracy & totally effective I see no reason to speed up my loads.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Wait a minute. I killed two buffalo perfectly dead with a borrowed 375 shooting 250 gr bullets. Three bullets total for both animals. First one didn't go twenty yards before tipping over. I'm not sure what the velocity was but I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 2500 fps. It didn't shake my brain loose. I shot one round through the gun at the range each trip. I don't recall ever shooting a 375 before my first safari. I do shoot a lot at the range here ... shotgun.

Would I attempt shooting a buffalo with 1960s 250 gr ammo? No, and I don't think many professionals would have tried it either. But these bullets are a world of different. Almost total weight retention, perfect mushroom, very good penetration, and mild enough recoil that I hardly noticed. I didn't select the ammo, my PH did (it was his gun). Didn't know the weight of the bullets until we put the slug from second buff on the scale. I was surprised and impressed.

So, tell me Gert, why would 250 gr 375 copper slugs be so effective killing buffalo but 300 gr 423 bullets just aren't enough? I'm sure they don't keyhole or Jeffery wouldn't have designed the gun to shoot them. He stopped selling the ammo because it became unpopular for dangerous game (for which it was not intended). And that unpopularity was due to "bullets coming apart in thick skinned animals." But those were 1920s bullets, not modern copper stuff.

I don't plan to spend a lot of time at the range with the 404 I'm building. First, it's not necessary. I obviously know how to shoot. Second, shooting at paper bores me to tears. Third, my eyes probably couldn't take it. And lastly, plinking with a 404 would be expensive as hell! A waste of money, even if I could find the components to practice/plink with. And no one can right now. I will sight it in off the sticks because shooting it from the bench might break bones ... mine. Once it's zeroed the gun goes back in the case.

 

[tward1604]

2150 is plenty sufficient for killing out of the 404. 2350 is also sufficient for killing out of the 404, but you do pay for it with more recoil. If I ever run in to an animal that tells me I should've been shooting 200 fps faster I'll walk up and shake his hand and send him on his merry way. I prefer to stay around 2150 personally and have shot loads at both velocities. Either way both kill just fine and the preference isn't that much different to make a generalized argument either way. Personally I'm happy with the performance of 2150 and the "lesser" recoil than I am wanting 200 fps more.

I'm also a proponent of saying there is no such thing as overkill, dead is dead. You can't kill something too dead.

Here are muzzle energies from an online calculator for what it's worth.

400 grain at 2150 = 4105 ft lb ke
400 grain at 2350 = 4905 ft lb ke

 

[WAB]

Wait a minute. I killed two buffalo perfectly dead with a borrowed 375 shooting 250 gr bullets. Three bullets total for both animals. First one didn't go twenty yards before tipping over. I'm not sure what the velocity was but I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 2500 fps. It didn't shake my brain loose. I shot one round through the gun at the range each trip. I don't recall ever shooting a 375 before my first safari. I do shoot a lot at the range here ... shotgun.

Would I attempt shooting a buffalo with 1960s 250 gr ammo? No, and I don't think many professionals would have tried it either. But these bullets are a world of different. Almost total weight retention, perfect mushroom, very good penetration, and mild enough recoil that I hardly noticed. I didn't select the ammo, my PH did (it was his gun). Didn't know the weight of the bullets until we put the slug from second buff on the scale. I was surprised and impressed.

So, tell me Gert, why would 250 gr 375 copper slugs be so effective killing buffalo but 300 gr 423 bullets just aren't enough? I'm sure they don't keyhole or Jeffery wouldn't have designed the gun to shoot them. He stopped selling the ammo because it became unpopular for dangerous game (for which it was not intended). And that unpopularity was due to "bullets coming apart in thick skinned animals." But those were 1920s bullets, not modern copper stuff.

I don't plan to spend a lot of time at the range with the 404 I'm building. First, it's not necessary. I obviously know how to shoot. Second, shooting at paper bores me to tears. Third, my eyes probably couldn't take it. And lastly, plinking with a 404 would be expensive as hell! A waste of money, even if I could find the components to practice/plink with. And no one can right now. I will sight it in off the sticks because shooting it from the bench might break bones ... mine. Once it's zeroed the gun goes back in the case.

A little humility would go a long way on this forum. You have killed two buffalo and are lecturing a man who lives there and has an order of magnitude more experience with dangerous game. There is a lot to learn here if you are willing to listen. So far it appears that you are just here to show us how much better than the rest of us you are.

 

[Slider]

Get a 404 Case and neck it down to 375.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Members, keep in mind this is all "tongue in the cheek" it is not for me to tell any person how he should reload and what bullet to shoot at what velocity.... ,being able to shoot the dangerous game rifle very accurately, cycling your bolt as fast as possible while keeping your eye on the animal you are shooting at while still being able to hit the important body parts to stop or anchor it is to me the most difficult technique in hunting dangerous game .

Like all the great hunters/game rangers pointed out" my rifle is an extension of my arm and hand "I sleep , eat with it and keep it close to me...maybe this is an indication of how dedicated these great hunters was to the rifle that kept them from being trampled ..

As a member pointed out everyone to it`s own ..on the end of a long day hunting the enjoyment and special experience counts for each and everyone of us. May the wind be in your face and the sun on your back.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

A little humility would go a long way on this forum. You have killed two buffalo and are lecturing a man who lives there and has an order of magnitude more experience with dangerous game. There is a lot to learn here if you are willing to listen. So far it appears that you are just here to show us how much better than the rest of us you are.

I'm not Superman. My PH gives the same gun and presumably same ammo to other clients who have never held one. And I can see from the lodge's website gallery they do just fine with it. Kill lots of buffalo. Those clients are not shooting 400 gr bullets at 2500 fps (300 gr is typical I think). But here's some fella who, because you say he lives there, knows absolutely that 400 gr cannot be effective on dangerous game unless it's pumped up to 416 speed. That's not been my experience, which I related. I'm not familiar with the other guy's experience.

This old 19th century black powder concept that bigger must be better has gone out the window in recent decades with advancements in bullet construction and new powders. Today we can shoot 300 gr .423 bullets that are light years different than the stuff made in the 1920s with gunpowder that's light years different. I'm a great one for nostalgia. It's why I'm building a 404 on a Mauser 98. But I also have an immense amount of respect for the animals I hunt. If I can shoot them more effectively with lighter modern bullets than what was used 75 years ago, why shouldn't I? Or is the rule of nostalgia carved in stone? I also have enough experience shooting and hunting to know more recoil purely for the sake of more recoil (i.e. nostalgia) is not conducive to proper shot placement. Quite the opposite.

I have 89 Barnes 400 gr bullets to use because they came with the reloading package I bought. I'll try them. It's what I have. But I'm also ordering, or trying to order, some in 300-350 gr range. That's what I would prefer ... because they will work and not beat me up as much. I have made much lighter bullets work on buffalo before. I'm sure 300 gr coppers will be at least as deadly.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Get a 404 Case and neck it down to 375.

Isn’t that sorta kinda the 375 RUM?

 

[sgt_zim]

I rather like the 404 & consider it to be more in the class of a 458 than a comparison to the 375. However, for me, the main disadvantage of the 404 is the lack of cheap cup & core bullets. Practice and range time can be had at a reasonable cost with either the 375 or the 458, but just try and find a cheap bullet in .423". One feels bad getting range time at $2 a shot.

Hawk has .423 bullets for a decent price. Price listed is per box of 50

Bullet Selection | Hawk Bullets

The World's Largest Selection of Bullets. .351 SL 33 WCF 348 Winchester 50 Beowulf 38-55 9.3mm 8mm 32 Remmington 270 Caliber Cal 280 Ross 50-110 38-40

hawkbullets.com

 

[Zambezi]

A .375 is like a steak knife bought from Target whereas a .404J is like a hand forged knife with a multi-folded steel blade made by a craftsman for a craftsman. The .375 will get the job done with speed and efficiency but with the .404J you'll get the job done with pleasure, efficiency and a sense of pride, history and ownership.

When the chips are down I'd rather face an incoming jumbo with a .404J than a .375H&H.

Then again I only know enough to not put diesel in a petrol motor.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Hawk has .423 bullets for a decent price. Price listed is per box of 50
View attachment 541481

Bullet Selection | Hawk Bullets

The World's Largest Selection of Bullets. .351 SL 33 WCF 348 Winchester 50 Beowulf 38-55 9.3mm 8mm 32 Remmington 270 Caliber Cal 280 Ross 50-110 38-40

hawkbullets.com

Thanks! I'll check them out. Looks like they sell them in boxes of 35 too.

 

[Tanks]

...

This old 19th century black powder concept that bigger must be better has gone out the window in recent decades with advancements in bullet construction and new powders. ...

The advantage of new bullet construction and new powders does not stop at .375 and does apply to big bores as well. And yes, bigger is more effective as caliber matters.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Hawk has .423 bullets for a decent price. Price listed is per box of 50
View attachment 541481

Bullet Selection | Hawk Bullets

The World's Largest Selection of Bullets. .351 SL 33 WCF 348 Winchester 50 Beowulf 38-55 9.3mm 8mm 32 Remmington 270 Caliber Cal 280 Ross 50-110 38-40

hawkbullets.com

Bengal Bullets .404/.424" diameter WFN bullet will make for even cheaper practice time as well as being an effective hunting HC projectile as well. I'm expecting a 500-ct order to arrive any day now.

If you order in volume, the price per bullet drops accordingly. A 250ct order works out to about $0.53 cents per bullet.

.404 (.424") - 390 Grain LFNGC — Bengal Bullets

390 grain Long Flat Nose Gas Check sized to .424.” Meplat is .26”and nose length is .62.”

www.bengalbullets.com

The owner of BB, "Keith," is using a new mould, so along with the coating and the GC, the slug ends up weighing right at 400grns.

Just FYI ...

 

[cajunchefray]

the difference between the 375 & 404 can be visualized regarding the closed system recoil. Upon ignition of the powder the bullet starts through the bore followed by the burning powder. when the bullet was chambered the rifle would have had a balance point. then the bullet moved to the end of the barrel and the powder was more or less evenly distributed behind it. Basically the rifles balance point would be the same if a bullet was placed on the muzzle and a weight equal to the powder charge was placed at the midpoint of the barrel. Since the 404 has a heavier bullet, the shift in balance point would be further forward but since the rifle wants to balance the forces, it would like to have both balance points at the same point on the bench, So the rifle would move rearward until the balance point of the fired bullet was at the same location as the balance point of the unfired. So the 404 would have more rearward movement of the rifle- however, Since the bullet takes more time going from breech to muzzle, the rifle takes more time in moving to the new position. The time it takes is approximated using 1/2 the muzzle velocity (the average speed of the bullet going from 0 at the breech to its muzzle velocity. Since the 375 has a faster average speed, it takes less time getting to the muzzle and so the recoil of the rifle is quicker.

This is why a 404 may have a larger amount of recoil but the 375 has a quicker recoil which may be more noticeable.

This is the best explanation I have read, regarding the "Recoil Impulse, Velocity of Recoil, and Energy of recoil. The "Moment of Recoil, Rifle Balance and Recoil Speed makes a lot of difference for a slight framed (skinny) guy like me.

I read some years ago, that a British Ordinance Officer (can't remember his name), that claimed most men can shoot a rifle comfortably up to 17 Pounds Feet/ Second of Recoil Velocity.

I think this applies for medium bores as well, as many shooters feel the sharp recoil effect of Weatherby Ammo. Almost all are greater than the 17 pounds feet per second level.

When I ran the numbers on a .416 Rigby (410 grains at 2350 fps) and a downloaded .416 Remington (400 grains at 2150, old school Nitro Express), it made a lot of sense.

The 400 grain at 2150 was right at 17 pounds feet per second recoil velocity, and I can shoot this accurately for several rounds.
The .416 Rigby, 2350 fps was about 19 pounds feet per second, too much for me to shoot accurately after 3 shots.

That's why I shoot a 450/400 Nitro.
But I really want a .404 Jeffery, for the nostalgia factor.