.375 should be banned from buffalo hunts!

[Fordy]

Looks like they really can take more punishment than an African buffalo with pretty girls riding them….

Gday skshyk

View attachment 710195

Police use them in Brazil right ?

View attachment 710145

That is not realy productive imo & one I don’t know if you meant this as a joke with the pictures you posted above of the police riding them & that pretty girl

Now if it’s meant as a joke I’m sorry it was lost in translation by me so accept my apology in advance if so but where I believe you we’re coming from is these water buffalo are softer than the cape buff ?

Now let’s break this down to why the case maybe
Firstly the level of domestication of wild animals takes sometimes hundreds if not thousands of years to complete & is it ever really complete ? then the animals natural instincts can still be seen from time to time of reverting back to some pretty normal animal instincts

Also some wild critters have been caught & trained for our own gain eg field plowing as no real difference to horses in other parts of the world but those countries started the process with water buff

So is it that the African cape buff hasn’t had enough time to develop a cape buff to the levels that those police & lady were able to achieve due to the perseverance of the many generations before them of selective breeding ?

So to say a water buffalo is soft or my interpretation of what has been portrayed is false
Now some of them are not that hard to kill & some are pretty well sponges just like the cape I’ve seen shot & shot myself but a lot of that will come down to other factors for another days discussion

So is this the start of the cape buff one day getting rode down a street by police?

Idk but one that has possibilities but don’t think we will see it in our lifetimes
Cheers

 

[Hunter-Habib]

There's nothing to be thankful for; I've gotten a lot of these posts.Something I'll never understand is why the hell there are calibers larger than .375, since it solves everything! Do people just like carrying guns that weigh more and hit harder?

I’ll tell you why. Due to travel restrictions, the days of carrying multiple rifles into Africa (i.e the “Dream Battery”) for hunting… are unfortunately over (generally speaking). It’s quite rare for most visiting hunters traveling to Africa these days… to bring more than two rifles. Indeed, a lot of sportsmen just prefer to travel with one.

Here, the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum shines through remarkably well. It’s one caliber which can accurately take plains game while still being ADEQUATE for hunting dangerous game. Basically the Swiss Army Knife of rifle calibers. Based upon my personal field experiences, the only application which I wouldn’t feel comfortable using it for… are body shots on bull elephants (for that application, I would personally go no lighter than a .458 caliber weapon). Everything else is fair game for this caliber (especially with modern bullets)… provided of course, that initial shot placement is critical. The beauty of this caliber is that you can take a heavy bullet weight (I personally prefer 300Gr but these days bullet weights up to 380Gr are also available) and zero in your rifle for it’s maximum point blank range. And you’ve got a rifle powerful enough for 99% of the world’s big game with a trajectory flat enough to afford the operator reasonable ranges.

The .375 Holland & Holland Magnum isn’t the best at being powerful. It isn’t the best at being a long range caliber. But it’s the best at doing both these things adequately well. Versatility is it’s best quality.

I’ll add one more thing. Nobody wants to talk about it, but the vast majority of client hunters have relatively little field experience with big bores (members of these forums notwithstanding). Back in their home countries, they’re most familiar with hunting some form of deer or wild boar with a .30 caliber of some kind (generally speaking). Put a .416 Rigby (or larger caliber) into their hands and (unless they’ve put in a good amount of practice beforehand with it) most of them will struggle to shoot it accurately due to the recoil. Without sounding even remotely disrespectful towards our American forum members, I’ve personally seen a disturbingly high trend of American client hunters in the 1970s… who used to go on Safari with their big brand new .460 Weatherby Magnum rifles. These people were an absolute nightmare for their white hunters since they invariably couldn’t handle the recoil of this violent caliber and seldom shot anything properly. Here the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum shines through again. Most client hunters can (with little practice) learn to manage the recoil of this caliber with minimal effort. Thereby allowing them to make a more accurate initial shot on big game. Bigger is only better if you can handle it. And the harsh reality, is that around 60% first time client hunters these days can’t handle the recoil of big bore rifles properly.

I’ve already shown you my Cape buffalo hunts with this caliber. Here are some of my other African dangerous game hunts by employing the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum.

 

[HUNTROMANIA]

I’m hunting brown bears and wild boars here. Bears can reach 600-700pounds, boars easily 450 pounds. I used .375 on both and I wasn’t satisfied but I would never say is a bad caliber or not to be used. Maybe I choose the wrong projectile. Is not always about caliber is about projectile.
300 win mag with 180gr bullet is inefficient to big game under 150m. But a 220gr bullet is excelent!
You may be right with your point but I’m sure is more circumstantial and more about ammunition choice.

 

[Warbeast]

The minimum for buffalo should be 416 and not 375, that's what I meant....

So 45-70 is and will be the bestest ever then
I knew it

But to be honest, i find this quite interesting topic.

 

[Challer]

Yes, I work with people, but I have character and limits... treat everyone here with great politeness, and criticism is always accepted, disrespect and ridicule are not, they are not more men than I am. If the topic is unproductive, delete it whenever you want, it was supposed to be something productive and not a generalized fight like it became, or expel me if that is what the majority wants, I have no problem with that!

Your SOB cuckolds statement was hardly polite or respectful. I’m done with this thread.

 

[grand veneur]

Your SOB cuckolds statement was hardly polite or respectful. I’m done with this thread.

Some of the members provoked this. We come from very different cultures and some of you are not aware of this. Until now I also assumed that this Forum is an international Forum, but if this Forum should become a North American Forum, please let us know and we will to retreat.

 

[HankBuck]

Buffalo is without a doubt the large-bodied animal I've hunted the most. I'm very close to 300 (both as a hunter and as a guide), 80% of which are huge water buffalo! And I'm going to say something controversial here, but anyone who knows buffalo in all its might will understand what I'm saying: The .375 caliber should not be used for buffalo hunting! Okay, now you can criticize!

View attachment 710031@Chrishuntbrasil: well you can’t “eliminate” the .375 H&H for Buffalo without giving a reason AND offering what round should Replace it? Especially if you think the New “minimum caliber” should be XXX ? Once You state the NEW caliber - everyone on AH can then “argue that” and also cite examples of when that NEW XXX caliber failed——why it sucks etc… Then this thread goes on for 20 years !!

 

[Challer]

Some of the members provoked this. We come from very different cultures and some of you are not aware of this. Until now I also assumed that this Forum is an international Forum, but if this Forum should become a North American Forum, please let us know and we will to retreat.

Not a legitimate excuse. I am German

 

[Fordy]

Gday @michael458
I’ll delve a little deeper on above & ask for a little schooling on a few other points im unclear on from my observations

.................................... I knew you were going to step in it up to you eyeballs with that statement, here in the land of 375 RAT Caliber Worship! HEH HEH...........

But this sissy boy loves his rat calibres & have 2 of them in a h&h along with a rum just clearing that up in case you’ve forgotten ha
Anyway it’s been a great learning curve to understand what is killing better or falling off the perch in the way of pill designs & im greatfull to have seen the way forward

Many of you know my opinion of 375 caliber anything...... Those that do not, I DESPISE 375 caliber, I loath it, I would not even use one for Rats...... I would not allow one in my Lab or on my range! I hate to admit however, and it pains me to do so, 375 caliber seems to be the choice for those Sissy Boys that cannot learn to shoot larger calibers, and desire to chase buffalo, and possibly a good choice for the Ladies out there that wish to hunt buffalo. Also a good choice for PH's to always recommend, that realize the common client hunter is not a shooter, and maybe less chance of missing the shot completely, and even then the PH most likely will have a suitable buffalo caliber to clean the mess up. So yes, I have to concede there may be instances where the 375 could be useful!

Glad that’s off your chest ha
Now we can get into it

This has been the most entertaining 375 bashing thread I think I have ever seen........ HEH HEH.....

Yes it has been entertaining while also enlightening & I’ve had a bit of fun with you & look forward to some in return
now the nuts & bolts that you’ve hit on a extremely interesting point below of the discussion that not a lot of people understand or see & that if we can just step back clear our heads for a minute we may get what you’re talking about & if the op had worded better initially the discussion may have been different but then we most likely wouldn’t have got you to speak up so a opportunity has been gained in my eyes as learn I can

Boys and Girls, when it comes to Buffalo, they simply just do not respect Rat Calibers. I am sorry to tell you, you cannot even get their attention with the best of bullet tech.

This is one I’ll slightly disagree but on the whole yes I totally agree
Now this is not just a theory it’s actually been done on a few occasions but to get a reliable outcome the use in a 375h&h just won’t do it or come close it’s that simple

The rum is where it’s shown the snippets of a attention getting outcome but to go into the field expecting to see it your going to go away disappointed

Yes people it’s speed ( over 3k to 3300 impacts ) is so important especially the smaller the caliber the more you need to do the same damage to wounds but most go heavier on the old school & around they go

Now this was tested on numbers that exceeded Micheal’s below & one that it also showed a major weakness in those pills which I’ll talk about another time but listen to him he is overall totally correct & on a getting attention the vast majority just absorbed them & didn’t alter stride on even very well placed shots especially once angles were incorporated but yes the majority died but a couple buff were lost also

But a poorly designed.510 cal give some terrible results & one that you’d go back to the rat calibers in heart beat on some of the results that occurred on testing various pills in that caliber the last 2 years on buff well over Micheal’s numbers again

As our guy has repeated many times, not saying you can't kill one, saying that buffalo don't pay much attention to Rat calibers taking the hit. One year I was in Africa testing out the 9.3 B&M. It was a hammer on most all plains game, so good in fact that I thought maybe with the best of bullet tech it might do ok on buffalo? I took it to do some shooting with Paul Truccolo in Australia to see. After about 8-10 buffalo shot with 9.3, and the very best of CEB Raptors & North Forks, and shooting buffalo multiple times to get their attention, I put it aside and went to work with the 475 B&M, which was in test mode at the time as well. Things started working better of course. Buffalo started paying attention to the shots and hitting the dirt much faster. Multiple shots were not required to get their attention................. CALIBER MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE when it comes to buffalo

Yep This is where the likes of pill design can & does step that level up even more but we get stuck once again on old thoughts of sectional density & around we can go again if one’s not careful & clears their heads on what the pill is actually doing & what bases we need to cover

, I don't care what the 375 Experts tell you! Now the example above does not make me a .474 caliber fan either, I don't see it being one bit better on buffalo than .458 caliber.............

This above & below Michael is where I seek to be schooled as I have seen a line exists between the 458 &474 as is with rat calibres of a 338 vrs 358 among others now is this because of the bullets that were being used @ the time more or less of conventional thoughts & applications ( being heavy slow )
The reason I ask is simple as if the case is due to the likes of the more superior efficient killing system the game has also changed for the 577&600 guys due to what they have available in the choice of weights & speed they can push things too vrs my .510 Jeff @2700 impact that is something to behold as it dosent get their attention it’s demanding it Imo of course & one very special combo that I’ve failed to improve on & happy now with it although I may no only yanking your chain im done trying to improve on that 475 raptor but a quick question im thinking of trying the 350 raptor in .510 in my Jeffery but while it will kill a buff I’m not to sure on it’s overall potential of being good enough to being truly a next level player? So is it worth it or just stick with the 475 followed by a solid & one here’s another subject that’s not really in vogue around here either

.on this particular test run I had both my sons shooting other .474 caliber and .500 caliber cartridges, my best friend was shooting and testing new bullets in 500 NE as well. Together on this trip we shot well over 50+ buffalo, testing cartridges, rifles and of course more than anything else bullets.

There is a jump in buffalo reactions from Rat Calibers to .416. Another jump in animal reactions, about the same degree from .416 to .458. I did not see another jump in reactions until reaching .500/.510 caliber. In each step up, buffalo were down quicker, and more decisive, assuming one uses proper designed bullets at every step. If you don't use a proper bullet, then not even the biggest calibers will do what is required.

If you can shoot a 375 anything, you won't have a major problem with a proper setup 416, using proper serious bullet tech. You will be better off with this when it comes to buffalo. And I don't see the 416 as a fantastic buffalo caliber, it is better than lesser Rat calibers.

Very well said Proper set up is crucial as I had the snot knocked out of me by a 416 rigby & my 500 Jeffery is a pussycat to shoot compared to that sums of a b-tich yes I don’t like 416 either lol

Where does the Magic Start?

458..............................................

This above is also part of the schooling I’m after as I’ve seen it with the .510 on the proper designed pills they have the ability to buck the turns & tumbles more than the lesser calibre like the rat ones
Even saw it in the 416 on a now & then basis but once the 474 was reached they just went against the grain of that should’ve turned or if it did that was so deep in the penertration length it wasn’t really a issue as the vitals already gone but one I don’t like compromise so have you seen on your testing where the 458 has the ability to lessen the chance with it all being in the meplat diameter & please understand this is not all with the better bullets we have today & im thinking that is where it’s @ but a theory I am @ the stage of in understanding the big bores a little more as my journey evolves

Cheers

 

[dogcat1]

This entire thread is not really much help.
If you don’t like a .375 , don’t shoot one.
If you like bigger, shoot it.
For me, I will shoot whatever I choose in a legal and logical caliber.

The big issue is accuracy and bullet construction..

 

[michael458]

but a quick question im thinking of trying the 350 raptor in .510 in my Jeffery but while it will kill a buff I’m not to sure on it’s overall potential of being good enough to being truly a next level player? So is it worth it or just stick with the 475 followed by a solid & one here’s another subject that’s not really in vogue around here either

Excellent question Fordy........ One of my last trips to visit with Paul and do some shooting with the 500 MDM, I wanted to try and answer this very question, only in .500 caliber. I gave the 335 Raptors and the 350 ESP Raptor/Solids a good go on buffalo, these at higher velocity. I just figured the high velocity Raptors would be wicked, and they were of course, but I could not tell much difference in Animal reactions from the lighter faster Raptors in .500 than the heavier Raptor, 450s at 2400+...... Both were devastating, but I just could not see major differences in animals taking the hit. There is a 350 ESP Raptor/Solid that has been very effective on many other species, I shot several buffalo including a few big bulls with it and they put them in the dirt, but not any better than the heavier Raptors at some less velocity. Perhaps the question remains unanswered. I would say if you can get your hands on some of the 350s then give them a go. They are going to work and do well, but better than the 475 .510s? I doubt it from what I have seen. In the test work done with the 350 .510s at 3007 fps I was hitting buffalo capable at 22 inches penetration in my medium, and about the same penetration with the 350 ESP Raptors at 2750 fps in the 500 MDMs........ Both buffalo capable of course, I don't like below 18 inches for buffalo.

This above is also part of the schooling I’m after as I’ve seen it with the .510 on the proper designed pills they have the ability to buck the turns & tumbles more than the lesser calibre like the rat ones

Fordy, I had to read this a few times to get the jest of what you were asking. The answer is yes, in solids with 65% meplat or better, 458+ just does not veer off course, dead straight all the way almost no matter what gets in the way. Less than .458, then twist rates are important, even on proper designs. I believe it is the actual physical size of the meplat that assists the larger bores. Even on Raptors in .416s I have seen them turn right at the end of penetration, in test work and in animal tissue..... I can't say much for the Rat calibers, I could not stomach doing any test work with 375s...... Since I DON"T GIVE A RATS rear end ABOUT THAT CALIBER. I did try however, but I got tired of the puking and dry heaves touching those Rat bullets and Rat guns. I think I manged to test a couple of solids and maybe some Raptors in that caliber before I had to tell them do your own tests. HEH HEH............

Rat calibers..........Keep them for Rats, and not big ones, little ones....... Might consider a larger caliber for those big river rats............

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Wow! This thread will join some of the other legendary poo flinging threads! Almost as entertaining as the political forum.

For what it's worth, Kevin Robertson says the 375 H&H with a 350gr bullet is a great buffalo slayer.

Safe hunting

 

[Nyati]

 

[Nyati]

Having said that, The buff on my avatar was killed by one shot with a .375HH so I will keep using it, as I did when I shot my Hippo.

Maybe a better advice would be that hunters should practice shooting a little more, but what do I know ?

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

Good way to get your reaction score up; I guess?

 

[WAB]

This is the most ridiculous thread I have seen on AH. What a waste of time, I’m sorry I opened it. I won’t make that mistake again so don’t waste time replying to me.

 

[DrBob]

If alone in the bush with no back up..... the 375 is a little too light ... although the Ghost of John Taylor may haunt me for that. That's what the PH is for ... insurance. A guide...yes.... but a definitive ender of bad things...yes. The 375 H&H is not an "under-gunned" cartridge... just the margin of error is less. The 416 class has distinctly more recoil but that can be learned to shoot well. I bought 416 Rigby CZ and Ruger from the used rack because the first day at the range going to full power was too much for the African wanna-bees... great buys. Another point.... how much does adrenaline play in bad shots as fine motor skills go out the window when danger is near?

 

[Brian]

Wow! This thread will join some of the other legendary poo flinging threads! Almost as entertaining as the political forum.

For what it's worth, Kevin Robertson says the 375 H&H with a 350gr bullet is a great buffalo slayer.

Safe hunting

He also said that "Sectional Density is the key to hunting."

This is the most ridiculous thread I have seen on AH. What a waste of time, I’m sorry I opened it. I won’t make that mistake again so don’t waste time replying to me.

WAB,
In spite of the ignorant post, I learned a lot from this thread, there were many good posts. I appreciate it very much.
There were more intelligent, informative post than usual.

Sure there were some stupid, ignorant posts, some over reactions and some nasty things said.
So what? These hunting shooting threads bring the best and the worst out in people. I find that the jerks are "everywhere". It is part of life. The fine people are everywhere too and I think that they were plentiful on this thread.

I enjoyed this discussion very much. In my old age I am getting pretty good at just blocking out the stupid stuff.

Thanks for a mostly productive discussion. Brian

 

[steve white]

If alone in the bush with no back up..... the 375 is a little too light ... although the Ghost of John Taylor may haunt me for that. That's what the PH is for ... insurance. A guide...yes.... but a definitive ender of bad things...yes. The 375 H&H is not an "under-gunned" cartridge... just the margin of error is less. The 416 class has distinctly more recoil but that can be learned to shoot well. I bought 416 Rigby CZ and Ruger from the used rack because the first day at the range going to full power was too much for the African wanna-bees... great buys. Another point.... how much does adrenaline play in bad shots as fine motor skills go out the window when danger is near?

I would like to know how many PH's would carry a 416 since their job is "stopping". I have had ONE and he was queried by his boss, in my presence, about "why was he still carrying that 416" with an identifiable inference that it wasn't enough as a stopper. The PH defended his choice, but it was clear he was having to jump through hoops to do do.

 

[mdwest]

Wow! This thread will join some of the other legendary poo flinging threads! Almost as entertaining as the political forum.

For what it's worth, Kevin Robertson says the 375 H&H with a 350gr bullet is a great buffalo slayer.

Safe hunting

Why would we trust anything that guy says???.