.375 or .416 for Cape buffalo?

[ftrovato]

Whatever you're going to carry, practice, practice and practice some more.

I find the more I practice I don't notice the recoil because handling and holding the rifle correctly becomes second nature.

Personally I used the 416 on plains game in 2024 and took 13 animals down to 3 of the tiny ten with my 416. I plan to use it the same way in 2026.

Did I mention practicing....?!

 

[curt672]

And you seem clueless on the physics of it all. Speed (velocity) is a 4 times multiplier for ft lb of energy. Bullet Weight is a 1 for 1. Do your homework , recoil calculators put the 416 WB at approx. 70lb of recoil, given that number, if a good break will reduce that 40 % you are now down in the 38 to 40 lb range and at the same time still have 6400 lb of energy at the muzzle --- compare that to your 375

 

[deewayne2003]

And you seem clueless on the physics of it all. Speed (velocity) is a 4 times multiplier for ft lb of energy. Bullet Weight is a 1 for 1. Do your homework , recoil calculators put the 416 WB at approx. 70lb of recoil, given that number, if a good break will reduce that 40 % you are now down in the 38 to 40 lb range and at the same time still have 6400 lb of energy at the muzzle --- compare that to your 375

While your assigning homework do some yourself, it’s a muzzle BRAKE not break.

And No I HATE muzzle brakes and every guide I’ve ever met feels the same.

In the words of my Zim PH…..
“Muzzle brakes are great…. So you can have something to clamp onto when you cut them off.”

I’m in the process of booking my next hunt and looking at Buffalo, I’m bringing my .470ne.

I have killed 5 water buffalo with a .404J… no muzzle brake either; excellent option for lower recoil.

 

[DLSJR]

And you seem clueless on the physics of it all. Speed (velocity) is a 4 times multiplier for ft lb of energy. Bullet Weight is a 1 for 1. Do your homework , recoil calculators put the 416 WB at approx. 70lb of recoil, given that number, if a good break will reduce that 40 % you are now down in the 38 to 40 lb range and at the same time still have 6400 lb of energy at the muzzle --- compare that to your 375

I won’t hunt next to someone with a muzzle brake, I hate them for the excess noise. All the PH’s I know also have a strong dislike for muzzle brakes, and I know a lot of PH’s. They’d rather a hunter show up with a 375 H&H he can shoot than something bigger that he needs to put a brake on.

 

[Green Chile]

On the subject of homework, 416 Wby is around 83-85 ft lbs recoil, not 70. So it's a 30-06 level on top of what you quoted. No PH or tracker is going to want to hunt with a braked (not break) 416 Wby.

 

[PARA45]

A lot of excellent real-world experiences and examples have been given. I'd check the audience before arguing with some of the members on here that have many Dangerous Game experience under their belt.

I am one of those who love Weatherby rifles and cartridges and consider myself a Weatherby snob. However, I am also a practical individual, and I do realize that a 416 Weatherby is a "bit" of an overkill. Yes, speed kills, and Roy proved it with some of his smaller calibers and Roy showed how Kinetic Energy killed. However, some of the older/classic cartridges, have killed thousands of dangerous game with bullets going no faster than 2450 fps.

On the issue of the muzzle brake, well, I suggest you take a good set of hearing protection to your PH, to protect his hearing. Your PH will also take you to the range and he'll watch/study you on how you handle and shoot your 416 Weatherby.

If you reload, I recommend you reload and practice, practice, and practice some more. If you do not reload, well, I'm sure you probably have deep pockets to be able to afford factory 416 Weatherby ammo at $219 per box from the Weatherby website to be very proficient with this cartridge.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

And you seem clueless on the physics of it all. Speed (velocity) is a 4 times multiplier for ft lb of energy. Bullet Weight is a 1 for 1. Do your homework , recoil calculators put the 416 WB at approx. 70lb of recoil, given that number, if a good break will reduce that 40 % you are now down in the 38 to 40 lb range and at the same time still have 6400 lb of energy at the muzzle --- compare that to your 375

Here are comparisons to other dangerous game cartridges,

Yes, in a 11.5 rifle, a full load in a 416 Weatherby produces 72.1 ft. lbs of recoil. This is nearly equal to the recoil produced by a 458 Lott shooting a 500 gr bullet. That amount of recoil gets one's attention but in not intollerable if one practices.

Note: At 2550 fps muzzle velocity, the 416 Wby produces only 5776 ft. lbs, of energy. The 450 Ribgy produces 6400 and the 505 Gibbs produces 6716.

I shoot my 450 Rigby with 92 ft. lbs of recoil without a muzzle break. It rocks me backward but is tolearable for a magazine full of cartridges. My recovery time between shots is however more than me shooting a 458 Win or Lott.

Frankly, I don't know if I will ever hunt Africa with my 450 Rigby. I can thread a needle with my .375 H&H, shoot cloverleaf groups at 100 yds with my 416 Rem, and enjoy shooting with the satisfying "push" of recoil against my shoulder with my .458 Win. I've owned Lotts before and will again but the mighty 458 Win seems to be plenty for up close and personal dangerous game hunting as a client hunter. For a PH, a Lott or 505 Gibbs make a lot of sense!

As for killing power, Taylor's Knock Out blow formula rates the 416 Wby at 60, with the slower 416 Rem and Rigby at 57 each. That 5% increase is hardly worth the increased recoil! The KO factor isn't science but a fair estimate to compare killign effectiveness from John Taylor, someone who truely had been there, and done that!

I shot my @Altitude sickness .505 Gibbs, twice. That was enough for me! It approximate 117 ft. lbs of recoil was over my limit! He however shot that rifle very well indeed! Recoil tolerance is subjective to each individual shooter. Gun fit is an important factor in reducing "felt" recoil.

Finally, considering your PH and more so, the native African trackers that will be with you when you shoot your buffalo, it is my opinion that if one needs a muzzle break, they are shooting too much gun!

 

[Bandera]

Whew wee the knives came out and people went to cutting.

I tell my employees that a persons perception is their reality. There ain’t anything you or are going to do to change that.

I will throw an answer at the 2 year old post.
Get a 375 H&H or 375 Ruger for your first and possibly last Buffalo gun.
Or that 375 can be a gateway caliber.
My 375 lead to a 450-400 then a 458WM.

 

[grand veneur]

That's right, because until you have done it, you don't know whether if you will like something like that or not. I don't understand why some people buy big bore rifles, especially double rifles, for something they have never experienced before. Usually one argue always so rationally on the Forums, but that does not seem to be the case when it comes to start with big game hunting. We will rarely hear about disappointments or anything that did not go well, because such things are rarely reported on the Forums. In the uncertainty of what awaits me, I did my first buffalo hunts with borrowed rifles caliber 9,3mm or 375 H&H Magnum. Only then I upgraded after seeing what all could go wrong and finally bought a rifle caliber 460 Weatherby Magnum, not because I dreamed about, but because of the efficiency of such a cartridge for hunting buffalo.

 

[grand veneur]

To get back to the topic, anyone who is wavering between a rifle caliber 375 or one caliber 416 needs to think carefully about what they will do next. Perhaps something similar has already been posted, but if you plan to continue hunting big game regularly in Africa, than a rifle caliber 416 is the first choice for a client. However, if you only do it once, or it turns out it was not what you expected, the rifle will end up in your gun-safe. A rifle caliber 375 H&H Magnum has the advantage that it can be used for almost anything worldwide.

 

[oscar1975]

I am looking at buying a rifle for Cape buffalo and possibly hippo. I am stuck between the .375 H&H and a .416 rigby or Remington Magnum. I am leaning towards the .375 due to the lighter recoil and that transition between the .308 that I normally shoot won’t be as great. but Would greatly appreciate any input more experienced hunters may have.

As my colleagues say, try shooting both cartridges and see how you react to the recoil. If you can handle the .416 Rigby well, without any irritation from its recoil, it'll be better than the .375 Holland, but if you flinch from the .416's recoil, go with the .375; you won't go wrong.

 

[Brian]

As you know I am a big bore nut for cape buffalo, My shooting practice and preparation is different than most folks.

If you do end up with a .416 or .458 I suggest that you load it real light with light/cheap bullets for practice. Best to shoot it off of sticks, not the bench of course.

When it comes time to build your cape buffalo loads I suggest that you only need to shoot it a few times off the sticks and then a few off the bench to fine tune it. ( And with a big bore you don't need to run maximum loads even for hunting.)

Practicing for hunting with my .577 or .500 I just use a .22. As an old guy I don't practice very much any morel. I have my shooting method so printed in my head that I just don't need to practice much. Years of play and competitive shooting with rifles a pistols.

I hold the rifle firmly, pull it into my shoulder and squeeze the trigger, simple. Same for a .22 or .577NE.

For cape buffalo I just want to be able to hit a base ball at 60 yards, off the sticks under any strenuous conditions. In cape buffalo hunting, I consider that my marksmanship is a result of how I manage the stress/excitement/fear and I believe that frees me up to enjoy just about any big bore that I want. These days I shoot a 50-110 Winchester with good loads. 410 grain CEB Raptors at 2,100 fps in a custom TC Encore single shot. Easy to carry like a 30-30 and kills like a 458WM.

For me, I don't make a big issue out of the recoil, I just consider recoil management to be a mental thing more than a physical thing.

 

[pc3]

I am looking at buying a rifle for Cape buffalo and possibly hippo. I am stuck between the .375 H&H and a .416 rigby or Remington Magnum. I am leaning towards the .375 due to the lighter recoil and that transition between the .308 that I normally shoot won’t be as great. but Would greatly appreciate any input more experienced hunters may have.

I like the .416 Rigby and its what I chose and own. Took my first Cape Buff with it.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If the OP is still in limbo (I didn't read all nine pages of this two year-old thread), he might consider 404 Jeffery. It steps over the 40 caliber line without beating up the shooter. Ammo is not easy to find but not unobtainium either. I shot my first two buffalo with my PH's personal CZ 375 H&H (he backed me up with his 458 Lott). Each safari I only shot it once at the range before hunting (and had never hunted with anything bigger than 300 WM). I don't recall noticing much recoil even though on the bench. First safari I killed my buffalo with just one frontal shot through the heart. 110 yards which is a long ways for buff but we caught them crossing an opening and fortunately they stopped just long enough for a shot. The herd bull was a cranky bastard so we had to gut and run. Didn't recover the bullet. Second bull I shot on the run offhand at +60 yards through both lungs. Follow up shot in the chest but he was already almost dead after maybe 150 yards. Both Barnes bullets (I think they were Barnes) were recovered and PH weighed them on the powder scale when we were at the lodge. "What the ... ? Those mushroomed bullets don't look like they lost much metal!" His response was they didn't. If I told what they weighed out of the gun it would surely stir a lot of controversy here. But by gawd those bullets sure killed my buffalo effectively ... without beating up the client. PH told me the secret is monos require speed to be effective. One can choose to gas up DGR standard 300 gr 375 bullets and beat up the client or reduce weight to gain sufficient velocity. Made me a believer. I'm now trying to work up lighter loads for my 404 but it is hard to find any bullets but the old Kynoch/cordite designed 400 gr weight. Even harder to find loading specs for anything but 400 gr. Cutting Edge and Hammer both make lighter mono bullets (Hammer even offers a sub-300 gr which might be good for plains game). I'm thinking something around 325-350 gr could be fairly pleasant to shoot, even if gassed up a bit, and still very effective for buffalo.

After shooting two buff very effectively with 375 H&H, I built my own DGR in 404. Why didn't I stick with 375? I thought about it but 375 is too long to fit in standard action Mauser without cutting into the locking ring. That doesn't compromise strength but requires proper machining tools and expertise, neither of which were available. 404J just fits in a standard action without modifying the receiver's locking ring.

375 is doubtless more "practical" but 404 is just as effective ... and more "adventurous." Hey, we're African hunters. We are supposed to be adventurous. I would certainly consider 404 before 416 Rigby. Much less punishing for shooter if moderately loaded, even with oversize 400 gr bullets. Building one on a standard action has several advantages: 1) standard actions are more available/cheaper (much cheaper!) than magnum actions 2) standard actions have shorter bolt throw = less likely to short stroke and jam 3) shorter bolt stroke also = potentially quicker (slightly) rate of fire 4) lighter weight rifle (potentially). Disadvantages: modifications to bolt face, extractor, bottom metal, and feeding rails/loading ramp requires expertise ( = $$$). Still I estimate its cheaper to build a 404 on standard action than magnum. Just buying a magnum action alone would have cost more than twice as much as my entire standard action project when completed.

 

[BeeMaa]

As my colleagues say, try shooting both cartridges and see how you react to the recoil. If you can handle the .416 Rigby well, without any irritation from its recoil, it'll be better than the .375 Holland, but if you flinch from the .416's recoil, go with the .375; you won't go wrong.

It's not only handling the recoil, it's HOW you handle the recoil. Meaning how fast can you get a follow-up shot on target accurately. The time spent recovering from the initial shot can be crucial in hammering home a second before he disappears into the scrub.

For instance, I can accurately shoot both a 416RM and 375H&H, however my second shot is much quicker with the 375. I'd rather have two-300 grain bullets in him than one 400. Not everyone is like this, but it's something to consider.

 

[Red Leg]

And you seem clueless on the physics of it all. Speed (velocity) is a 4 times multiplier for ft lb of energy. Bullet Weight is a 1 for 1. Do your homework , recoil calculators put the 416 WB at approx. 70lb of recoil, given that number, if a good break will reduce that 40 % you are now down in the 38 to 40 lb range and at the same time still have 6400 lb of energy at the muzzle --- compare that to your 375

And a brake which every PH and tracker you encounter will loathe - while smiling and trying to be polite to their client.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

And a brake which every PH and tracker you encounter will loathe - while smiling and trying to be polite to their client.

Right. Given the knowledge available at everyone's fingertips these days, in my opinion anyone who takes a braked rifle on a guided hunt now is just being an asshole. And yes, assholes do go on guided hunts but in the back of my mind I have to wonder if they get the best results. Tips only go so far. Am I gonna take the jerk who carelessly ruins my hearing to a 48" sable I found last week or save it for someone I like? Easy answer. I would let the jerk shoot a thirty incher and then smile and tell him it's the best one I've seen in years, blah, blah, blah. Take the tip and mentally flip the bird to client.