375 H&H scope

[Fastrig]

if you can't shoot a 1x scope faster and with more accuracy than iron sights, something is wrong somewhere.
bruce.

Let’s put it this way, I don’t really “aim” with my open sights I just draw, point and fire. I’ve practiced with them so much that I shoot instinctively with them, and I hit what I shoot at probably 95% of the time. When I miss it’s normally because I started “thinking” and “aiming” instead of just letting my instinctive side take over. Now this is close in type shooting, which i believe is what we are discussing, say 50 to maybe 60 yards and in....longer than that, then you have to start “aiming” and a scope is the tool for that, not open sights.

 

[bruce moulds]

obviously you are not comparing apples to apples.
a scope causes you to aim whereas irons allow you the individual to just let rip.
maybe one of those reticles with a ring in the centre would help you to mentally aim less precisely.
the problem with stating that irons are faster than scopes on forums is that sometimes such statements change from urban myth to fact with beginners.
not sure a bout how to "draw" because I do not use a holster with a rifle, but "point and fire" is like rolling dice compared to aiming.
years of being uncompetitive in the early years of ipsc taught me that.
swaro has a 0.75x to 6x that might help you get started, but bad habits take a lot of work to overcome.
bruce.

 

[Ridgewalker]

Just my experience, but...I live out west and have taken game to over 400 yards (antelope) using a slow old 30-06 and an old Redfield 4x. Worked fine as I had a 6” zone to hit.

But, it is 2019 and I have taken some game in Africa where I only take one rifle, 375 H&H. I do have two scopes on QR mounts.
Primary DG scope Leupold VX6 1-6x illuminated. Backup for PG.
Primary PG scope Leupold VX6 2-12x illuminated. Backup for DG.

I no longer have young eyes and cannot see open sights well enough to count on them. When I switch on the red dot, my eyes are drawn to it and it centers well on what I am wanting to hit. Put the red dot where you want the bullet to go. Works for me and my PH needed to use it once and couldn’t believe how easily it pointed at the target before the sun came up.

I love hunting night critters and the 1x or 2x with a turned low red illuminated dot have worked excellent!

I believe, depending on what you hunt, you will find at times the 12x is needed. Example, I used it for a 90 yard shot on a golf ball size target on a crocodile. Worked perfectly. I don’t believe I could have made that shot with only 6x. Maybe I could, but at the price of a croc, I wanted every advantage I could get.

I’m an experimenter, so take what I have chosen with a grain of salt and decide for yourself what you want to hunt, how you want to hunt it, and figure out what works best for you. We are all quite different in how we do things.

Best of luck in your decision! Hope it doesn’t cost you as much as me figuring out what works best for you!

 

[bruce moulds]

ridgewalker,
you might have nailed fastrig's problem when you said "I had a 6" zone to hit".
hunting requires aiming, but how you aim is the art.
you are not steady, and the target is not often absolutely still.
the target is inside a 3 dimensional thing which could be facing any direction.
the best you can aim is at a "zone", and you must be able to not fire unless you are in that zone, then call the shot for where it went in that zone.
the zone must be small enough to suit the job in hand, as with the crock, or a fox for a skin, at longer ranges, or a bigger animal's heart, or even lung, at the range required.
then you have to have a rifle powerful enough to deal with the fact that a shot might not be central in the zone.
bruce.

 

[Fastrig]

obviously you are not comparing apples to apples.
a scope causes you to aim whereas irons allow you the individual to just let rip.
maybe one of those reticles with a ring in the centre would help you to mentally aim less precisely.
the problem with stating that irons are faster than scopes on forums is that sometimes such statements change from urban myth to fact with beginners.
not sure a bout how to "draw" because I do not use a holster with a rifle, but "point and fire" is like rolling dice compared to aiming.
years of being uncompetitive in the early years of ipsc taught me that.
swaro has a 0.75x to 6x that might help you get started, but bad habits take a lot of work to overcome.
bruce.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I’ve been dropping what I hunt with my lever actions with open sights for 40 plus years so don’t think I’ve got too many bad habits to break. What I have found though is people who can’t shoot with open sights have a tendency to down play their effectiveness. Two of the best shots I’ve ever seen are a couple of ex-Marines that go to one of the ranges I frequent and shoot with iron sights on their AR’s. They consistently make the guys with scopes on their AR’s look bad.

 

[bruce moulds]

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I’ve been dropping what I hunt with my lever actions with open sights for 40 plus years so don’t think I’ve got too many bad habits to break. What I have found though is people who can’t shoot with open sights have a tendency to down play their effectiveness. Two of the best shots I’ve ever seen are a couple of ex-Marines that go to one of the ranges I frequent and shoot with iron sights on their AR’s. They consistently make the guys with scopes on their AR’s look bad.

they can shoot better because they can shoot better due to good technique.
the guys with scopes possibly have 1 or both hands on it.
there is no doubt that open sights are effective when used well by a person with good eyes.
but they are not as fast as the correct scope for the job.
I know a guy who using target ring sights often outshoots fclass shooters with 30 - 40x scopes.
but he cannot shoot faster.
maybe if you went to the trouble of learning to use a scope correctly you would find the same.
bruce.

 

[Fastrig]

they can shoot better because they can shoot better due to good technique.
the guys with scopes possibly have 1 or both hands on it.
there is no doubt that open sights are effective when used well by a person with good eyes.
but they are not as fast as the correct scope for the job.
I know a guy who using target ring sights often outshoots fclass shooters with 30 - 40x scopes.
but he cannot shoot faster.
maybe if you went to the trouble of learning to use a scope correctly you would find the same.
bruce.

Your opinion is that scopes at short range are faster, that doesn’t make it a fact. I find that open sights are faster at short range. It probably boils down to the shooter at the end of the day.

 

[bruce moulds]

it boils down to the fact that in a scope the image and the reticle are on the same plane.
add to this the fact that there are 2 thing to line up and not 3 as with irons, and the scope is faster because you have to do less things and make less decisions.
this of course relies on the fact that in both cases stock fit and sight mounting are correct for a fair comparison.
it is not just my opinion that scopes are faster.
in fact your opinion that irons are faster in in the minority.
any good shooting relies on what is called "natural point of aim".
it is achieved by bringing the rifle up in whatever position you are shooting, and when right, the sights align with the target in a relaxed manner.
perhaps you feel the way you do because you cannot achieve a natural point of aim with your scoped rifle for some reason.
bruce.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I'm always amazed when I see a hunter in "bear" country, shoot a deer/elk/moose, then stroll towards it with scope still mounted, no side arm, as if nature is standing still waiting for him to collect his prize. QD scope mounts are there for a reason, get that scope off, either have open sights available or mount a red/green dot site, and be prepared should a predator decide the kill is his instead of yours. Can't imagine Africa is any different, maybe even more so in this regard. Was watching a YouTube video last week of a lion hunt, the client and his PH are walking through heavy brush and guess what's sitting atop the client's rifle? Yep, a scope, and the lion is within 20 yards and not happy because the first shot the client took just wounded him....the PH is carrying a big double, but the client should have had enough situational awareness (or flat common sense) to get that scope off and be ready for a close range encounter.

I live in very big bear country Black Bear Country but the biggest ones in America just under a thousand pounds and I always carried a big sidearm when walking through thick shady Mountain laurels or upland swamps. Typically had some semblance of a 30 caliber gun with 200 grain nosler partitions using either open sights or a Leupold on one power... Now after growing tired of walking through that habitat for the last 25 years I walk the periphery with my 416 and 1 to 6 power scope! They're really only going to be dangerous when wounded but in America you're on your own no tracker pH or hunting buddy to back you up.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I wonder why police don't have scopes on their pistols? Perhaps it's just a budgetary limitation.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I feel as if it depends on the sights. I can shoot just as accurate with my M16 style AR with military sights as I can my model 70 30-06 at 100 but the scope is faster. But at close range I just look at the front sight, I don’t even notice the rear. The rear sight is something to look through not at. If the stock fits me correctly the sights are already lined up and I put the front sight on the target and fire. Also I feel the shorter the sight height, the quicker it is to aim. I am split with my hunting weapons being some scoped and some not. I hunt deer with open sights because at the range I hunt deer I can see them easily. I hunt squirrels with a scope because it’s hard for me to find his head in the dense leaves with my naked eye.
I will end by adding scopes do not make you more accurate, they just allow you to see better, and you have to see it to hit it.

 

[Fastrig]

I live in very big bear country Black Bear Country but the biggest ones in America just under a thousand pounds and I always carried a big sidearm when walking through thick shady Mountain laurels or upland swamps. Typically had some semblance of a 30 caliber gun with 200 grain nosler partitions using either open sights or a Leupold on one power... Now after growing tired of walking through that habitat for the last 25 years I walk the periphery with my 416 and 1 to 6 power scope! They're really only going to be dangerous when wounded but in America you're on your own no tracker pH or hunting buddy to back you up.

Hope you still carry that big side arm along with that small cannon you are shouldering . I don’t screw around when it comes to bears, small, medium or large, as they can be unpredictable. When I was a teen ager a good friend of our family and his son where out deer hunting when a bear can strolling by and, unprovoked, attacked the dad. Lucky his son was with him and shot the bear point blank in the head with his 30-30 or the dad probably wouldn’t have made it. Wasn’t even that big a bear but it tore him up really bad in a short period of time. Yea, no PH’s here for the most part, have to keep your awareness up when you are by yourself. I try to hunt with someone else most of the time though, makes the outing more fun plus it is safer to do so.

 

[bruce moulds]

wyatt,
does the ar have an aperture rear?
a big aperture close to the eye works exactly as you describe.
you only see it in peripheral vision and subconscious mind.
it is easier to focus on the front sight that way, and also more accurate.
if the stock fits you and the rear sight is close, it is as fast as a scope and faster than irons.
just using normal iron barrel sights you need to move focus from front to rear continuously, when just focusing on the front sight is what you should do.
the scope has more resolving power, and puts the target and reticle in focus in the same plane.
worst is to focus on the target with irons of any kind.
bruce.

 

[BeeMaa]

Repetitions, it all comes down to reps and proper technique regardless of what you are using.
For some, it's irons sights of some kind, but I personally prefer a scope.

I grew up shooting mostly irons and in the military used them extensively as well.
As I got older, and my eyes aged, I found myself leaning more toward scopes.
Now I find myself spending 95% of my reps shooting with a scope and using irons only a backup option.
Having a backup plan is important, but my primary is a scope in QR mounts.

 

[WAB]

Bruce you’re missing the factor of the distance between the line of sight and the bore. Having been a master class sporting clays shooter in my younger days, I would be quite surprised if I could not get an accurate shot off with a shotgun more quickly than anyone with a scoped rifle. This is due to shotgun shooting technique, stock style and eye alignment to the bore. With a good set of irons, the best in my mind being equipped with a rear receiver ghost ring, you get the alignment needed for very fast accurate shooting at close range.

To give you an idea how accurate this shooting style is, Gough Thomas Garwood, one of the greatest shotgun writers of all time, mentions a unique H&H Royal that was built in .22 LR. The owner used it to shoot duck on the wing to a distance of 70 yards. Obviously gun fit was superb.

I go to extremes to get my scopes as low as possible. However, it is not possible to achieve the alignment you get with a good receiver ghost ring. Obviously, drop at comb has to be set for this, but if it is, you can get close to the speed of a shotgun.

Interesting thought, why are big doubles not equipped with ghost rings as opposed to express leaf rear sights?

 

[BeeMaa]

Interesting thought, why are big doubles not equipped with ghost rings as opposed to express leaf rear sights?

I suppose for the same reason that NECG sells so many aftermarket ghost rings.

 

[bruce moulds]

the ghost ring is a fast sight due to the big hole, and also quite accurate.
the big issue with apertures in all conditions is if they get a drop of water in them.
many English boltguns had an aperture on the rear of the bolt.
bruce.

 

[Scrumbag]

That is a great suggestion on the 1.7-13x42 Z8. If it’s in the budget it meets all the criteria set by the OP.

A buddy of mine has put one of these on his Parker Hale in .375H&H. Looks a great option

 

[Scrumbag]

the ghost ring is a fast sight due to the big hole, and also quite accurate.
the big issue with apertures in all conditions is if they get a drop of water in them.
many English boltguns had an aperture on the rear of the bolt.
bruce.

Called a cocking piece sight or a "Rigby Style" peep sight.

Still being made my Rigby, Prechtl Waffen and also McLaughlin firearms.

(Got the Prechtl version on my 9.3x62)

Scrummy

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Yes Bruce it’s an aperture rear sight. If the V-type sights are close enough to the barrel and stock fit is good the can be really fast too. As far as big stopping doubles like the 577 I think a rib and a bead like a shotgun would be very quick and effective. I live in a shotgun slug only state, my dad used to hunt with a mossburg 500 20 gauge, he would practice by shooting hedge balls of the trees at 30 paces. He didn’t miss often.