358 Norma

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Nice hearing from you Bob. Don’t think I’ve bantered with you since you said “a 243 wasn’t up to hunting rats” or something similar. lol!! Hope things are well with you.

I am in the process of building a Whelen. But thought the Norma with a 280gr. Swift would make a backup to a big gun that would be out of commission. I know not ideal and not legal but when it hits the fan you could hunt and feel very up to the task. I thought about a 9.3x64 but even harder to get ammo for here and can’t get the real light bullets for hunting deer in the States.

@Jamie D Van Roekel
Can't complain about your logic. The 358 Norma is a fine cartridge. Where it comes into its own over the Whelen is with bullets 275-310 grains.
The big Sweede should be able to get the big 310s up over 2,500 fps for some real stomping power.
Bob

 

[Boyd Brooks]

The 358 Norma is an amazing cartridge. Used it for moose and black bear, no tracking required! With 250gr Oryx bullets, it’s the only cartridge that I have seen the blood spray on the exit wound through the scope. I use its baby brother the 308 Norma for deer.

 

[BlueFlyer]

Confirmed with my cousin, he is using a 200gr projectile and 74gr of AR2209. As per the stag in the photo, they usually drop on the spot, which makes the hunt a bit easier.

 

[lockingblock]

I love the cartridge but it’s got a lot of recoil. I have a nice custom rifle built in 358 that’s been sitting in my safe for years, Unfired. One of these days I need to dig it out and either put a scope on it or sell it.

 

[MS 9x56]

I love the cartridge but it’s got a lot of recoil. I have a nice custom rifle built in 358 that’s been sitting in my safe for years, Unfired. One of these days I need to dig it out and either put a scope on it or sell it.

Buckle up buttercup. I have yet to find any 358 cartridge to be onerous. The Norma can be sporty off a bench but quite manageable off sticks.

 

[Jamie D Van Roekel]

Mine is on a post-64 Model 70 with a 24" barrel with 12" twist.
.338 Win Mag brass works fine - just size load and shoot. Cases will turn out a little short.
.300 Win Mag brass also works but will need trimming.
Follow the ancient advice and reduce the following powder charges by 5% to start and do not exceed.
200 TTSX - 74 gn Varget - 3160 fps
225 Nosler Ballistic Tip - 67 gn Big Game - 2670 fps
or 68 gn Varget - 2920 fps
225 TSX - 71 Varget or Reloder 15- 2940 fps
250 Nosler Partition - 73 gn Big Game - 2840 fps
or 77 gn IMR4451 - 2810 fps
or 78 gn H4350 - 2850 fps
250 Speer - 72 gn Reloder 16 - 2760 fps
280 Swift - 65 Reloder 15 - 2590 fps
or 72.5 H4350 - 2680 fps

Cheers

Can you just run 300WM brass in a 358 Norma die then trim? Or do you have to neck up to 338 first?

 

[wswolf]

I have not found it necessary to to neck .300 Win Mag up to .338 first. Just use new or freshly annealed cases and lube the inside of the necks. I use a tapered expander and have had no problem necking .280 Rem cases up to .358 in one pass.

 

[EfRed]

Respect the work you’ve done on getting the most out of the 35 Whelen, but comparing loads that are nearly 200fps over what load data suggests for the Whelen to book loads for the 358 Norma isn’t really an apples to apples comparison.

Note that Speer lists the 250 gr HotCor at 2700fps for the .35 Whelen, within 50 fps of the .358 Norma. Modern powder technology, great efficiency of the .35 Whelen case.

 

[wswolf]

.358 Norma loading data is quite conservative and scarce since it is not a SAAMI cartridge (I think) and not terribly popular.

According to the Nosler Manual the .35 Whelen, with 250-gn bullet seated, has a case volume of 62.2 grains of water. The .358 Norma holds 78.0 gn of water, a 25.4% increase. Using The Rules by John Barsness the .358 Norma, using the optimal powder, will be capable of a velocity increase of 6.4% (1/4th of the volume increase) over the .35 Whelen at the same pressure. The 250-gn bullet can achieve 2871 fps. My personal experience confirms this.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

.358 Norma loading data is quite conservative and scarce since it is not a SAAMI cartridge (I think) and not terribly popular.

According to the Nosler Manual the .35 Whelen, with 250-gn bullet seated, has a case volume of 62.2 grains of water. The .358 Norma holds 78.0 gn of water, a 25.4% increase. Using The Rules by John Barsness the .358 Norma, using the optimal powder, will be capable of a velocity increase of 6.4% (1/4th of the volume increase) over the .35 Whelen at the same pressure. The 250-gn bullet can achieve 2871 fps. My personal experience confirms this.

@wswolf
I agree with your calculations but is all the extra powder and recoil worth the extra performance.
A lot will say yes the extra100-150 fps gives more but isn't really that much to celebrate in sing and story.
Bob

 

[EfRed]

Bob summarizes the beauty of the 35 Whelen very well. Having it, what more do you need?

 

[Big guns]

Life would be impossible without my 358 Norma. In reality, I own two Rem 700s and a 98 Mauser. Unfired and incomplete is the Mauser. I would never give up the 700, but I could give up that one.
Where are you in Montana? I rarely venture into bear country without the Norma, even if I'm just hunting for small game. You can live without the Norma if you hunt in Miles City on the east side.
Use the Norma if you hunt close to either park.
In mine, 250-gram bullets perform effectively. I have some 290gr Norma and 300gr Barnes original bullets. They kill everything they hit, but they are not flat shooters.

For what reason are you seeking "long range" options? You have to go over there once you shoot the animal. Before you shoot it, why don't you go over there?

In essence, a 30/375 Ruger is a 30 Newton.

 

[EfRed]

I have a Weatherby Mark V in 358 Norma, a Safari Custom from the old days. Good cartridge, I wanted one ever since Norma brought it out. I like the 35s.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Life would be impossible without my 358 Norma. In reality, I own two Rem 700s and a 98 Mauser. Unfired and incomplete is the Mauser. I would never give up the 700, but I could give up that one.
Where are you in Montana? I rarely venture into bear country without the Norma, even if I'm just hunting for small game. You can live without the Norma if you hunt in Miles City on the east side.
Use the Norma if you hunt close to either park.
In mine, 250-gram bullets perform effectively. I have some 290gr Norma and 300gr Barnes original bullets. They kill everything they hit, but they are not flat shooters.

For what reason are you seeking "long range" options? You have to go over there once you shoot the animal. Before you shoot it, why don't you go over there?

In essence, a 30/375 Ruger is a 30 Newton.

@Big guns
Life is possible without the big Sweede.
You just need to get a nice 35 Whelen and stoke it with a snoot full of CFE223 and you are only around 100fps or less than the Sweede.
I don't think any animal will notice the extra 100fps.
Bob

 

[Rule 303]

Unless you can get the powders that Bob uses in his Whelen then the 358Norma has the legs on the Whelen. I wonder if anybody has experimented with some of the newer powders in the Norma, may well increase this a bit more and may make my 358/338RUM a bit redundant.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Unless you can get the powders that Bob uses in his Whelen then the 358Norma has the legs on the Whelen. I wonder if anybody has experimented with some of the newer powders in the Norma, may well increase this a bit more and may make my 358/338RUM a bit redundant.

@Rule 303
Mate I'm getting to old to have my rifles beat the shit out of me like the 358stw and the 338RUM.
My Whelen has all the power I will ever need and the only rum that beats me up now is Bundy if'n I over imbibe.
As I age I like my rifle like my women, power with comfort.
Bob

 

[EfRed]

@Rule 303
Mate I'm getting to old to have my rifles beat the shit out of me like the 358stw and the 338RUM.
My Whelen has all the power I will ever need and the only rum that beats me up now is Bundy if'n I over imbibe.
As I age I like my rifle like my women, power with comfort.
Bob

I've read that the 35 Whelen is the most efficient cartridge. I wonder if what ever drives that also drives the velocities that can be wrung out of it ?

 

[Rule 303]

@Rule 303
Mate I'm getting to old to have my rifles beat the shit out of me like the 358stw and the 338RUM.
My Whelen has all the power I will ever need and the only rum that beats me up now is Bundy if'n I over imbibe.
As I age I like my rifle like my women, power with comfort.
Bob

Don't worry Bob, in a few years I will be the same, though the RUM is not that hard on the shoulder but is harder on the wallet. The 35Sambar feels a little sharper than the RUM but the Sambar is in a standard Ruger stock while the M17 RUM is in a Hatches stock, certainly a better fit.

EfRed:
Everything I have read on efficient cartridges puts the 35Whelen as No1 or a lineball call with some other and that the 35's are in general efficient cartridges