338-06 Cutting Edge Bullets for Plains Game?

[Alaska Luke]

I had thought about using these in my 358 Win to get a bit more range. The trouble is POI will probably be totally different from my 225 grain A Frames that I planned as a bear load. I'd have to exclusively used CEB for caribou and any bears I saw.

So... if I used 160 gr or 180 Cutting Edge bullets in a 358 Winchester would penetration through flesh and/or shoulder bones be adequate for a grizzly? I know the 358 is a bit smaller for them but I'd used the A Frame load on a grizzly. Since CEB are bad in brush would they deflect on bones or go through?

 

[michael458]

if I used 160 gr or 180 Cutting Edge bullets in a 358 Winchester would penetration through flesh and/or shoulder bones be adequate for a grizzly?

Yes.........

Since CEB are bad in brush would they deflect on bones or go through?

No, they much and crunch bone...... deflection is the issue with brush, stability.......... once actual terminals start its a straight drive to the end then...........

 

[Alaska Luke]

Sounds great thanks. What's better 160 or 180 grains? Seems like a totally different kind approach to bullet performance.

 

[michael458]

Sounds great thanks. What's better 160 or 180 grains? Seems like a totally different kind approach to bullet performance.

Good question...... I think you could flip a coin, I am reasonably sure either will shoot great in your gun, CNC machined bullets are really hard to screw up for accuracy. 358 Win is a wonderful cartridge, I wish I still had mine, a FW Stainless M70 with 18 inch barrel.... I tested the 150/160 Raptors in 358 Ultra with incredible results..... I have a very limited capacity 358 MGP, much less capacity than a 358 Win..... it is also limited in overall length as well........ I was very impressed with how the 160 Maximus performed in this cartridge, but the Two Raptors were much too long and took up too much case capacity for the limited 358 MGP..........I believe all three of these bullets would perform well in 358 Win, and possibly the edge going to the Maximus because it does not have to be seated so deep like the Raptors....... This is something I am not 100"% sure of since I have not tried them in 358 Win....

Performance, I have some 338s I can show you compared to the 358s......

 

[Aaron N]

I am reasonably sure either will shoot great in your gun, CNC machined bullets are really hard to screw up for accuracy.

It’s good you brought this up. I was reading another thread somewhere else yesterday, and it seemed the consensus there was CEB’s being hard to develop loads for. What are your thoughts on this? Is it hearsay?

 

[michael458]

It’s good you brought this up. I was reading another thread somewhere else yesterday, and it seemed the consensus there was CEB’s being hard to develop loads for. What are your thoughts on this? Is it hearsay?

I have had issues with some rifles, with twist rates that are too slow. I have several old push feed 223 Winchesters, they all came with 1:12 or even 1:14 twists...... My main load in 223 Rem is 50 Raptors, after knowing exactly what they do in the field, this bullet enhances 223 to my standards, I don't even consider anything else for these guns...... I have those barrels removed and replaced with 1:8 or 1:9 to stabilize the 50 Raptor.............

I have never had an issue with the big bores, and I shoot mostly the Brass Raptors in those.

I have almost zero experience with between .224 and .308 calibers. So I can't tell you anything about those. In ..308 caliber and what I would do with any .308 I would never need more than what the 10) FB Raptor can accomplish, and I never had problems with it in anything from 300 BLK to 300 Winchester.

I have heard some people having issues with some of the long copper hi BC bullets in various calibers, but I honestly have never messed with that, so I really can't say......

Back when the ESPs were being played with, they could be a real pain in the A@@........... They do not follow the rules on stability at all. While not a overall fan of those, some have actually turned out to be very useful in some calibers....... but you really have to watch your twist rates with these.....

So no, I would not say its "Hearsay", like everything there can be issues when you try something that might not fit properly.................

 

[eloudamy]

Twist rate: as I stated above, I haven’t even yet re-barred this rifle but I loved my previous 338-06 and decided for that caliber for this trip.
So, I have the option to go with a tighter than normal twist, 9.5 or 9.3, to have a wider degree of options on this caliber. Does this seem to be a wise choice? Would it be an advantage for the 200 grain options? In other words, if I don’t need the 200’s for Eland or other tough/big critters, why would I need a twist rate tighter than a 1:10?
(I’ve found a tight twist just makes load development more finicky, not impossible, just finicky.)

For reference, if I choose DG, I certainly would bring a 375, so I’m really talking about options up to the largest/toughest PG with this rifle.

I again say thanks for all the great posts. There’s a ton of great information here and field experience, which is otherwise hard to gain.

 

[michael458]

if I don’t need the 200’s for Eland or other tough/big critters, why would I need a twist rate tighter than a 1:10?

Go with the fastest twist rate you can get. If you can get faster than 1:10, do so. There is no down side to faster twist rates........ you can only gain, not loose....... it won't hurt with even lighter bullets to have faster twist.....

I have never seen faster twist being an issue with load development in anything I have done, but my small bore experience is extremely limited.......... as stated......... medium bores I have not seen any real problems, not because of faster twist rates..... I despise calibers between 223 and 308, I find them all finicky regardless of anything........ That is why I don't mess with them........ I have 308 from 1:8 to 1:10 and never seen any issues there. I believe most all my 338s are at least 1:10........ I shoot 338 WSM, 338 Win and 338 Ultra.......

I once had a 7.62X40 done by Wilson.... They put 1:14s on the guns, I requested 1:8, or worst case 1:10, the bastards refused, the gun would not shoot for crap......... Sent it to SSK and had a new 1;8 put on, and its a one hole deal now......

1:10 in 338 would be fine, but faster won't hurt either........ I had a rifle once, I forget the twist rate, but it would shoot the Raptors in a hole at 50, but if you simply added a talon tip to it, then it was sideways at 25... just adding that tiny bit of length and weight....... would have been just fine with even a slightly faster twist... and would not have hurt anything at all.........

With the big bores and solids, different story, that twist rate makes a big difference when talking about terminal penetration of solids..... Faster is REAL GOOD......... But not the subject in this thread......

if I choose DG, I certainly would bring a 375

Hmmm....... I would reconsider that........... really not any better off with that than your 338............ you need to make a move to .458 for that work..... Sorry, no offense, but that's what I think.

 

[eloudamy]

Thanks Michal458.
I do tend to perseverate on bullets and loads, so forgive me if I’m wearing out the subject.

Do you see any difference in terminal performance using the extended range Raptor? I’d like to use that one for the improve BC in case of a long shot.

 

[michael458]

Thanks Michal458.
I do tend to perseverate on bullets and loads, so forgive me if I’m wearing out the subject.

Do you see any difference in terminal performance using the extended range Raptor? I’d like to use that one for the improve BC in case of a long shot.

A brass Raptor is a brass Raptor on the nose......... all work exactly the same, regardless of the base.... I personally like Flat Base better........ Hell I don't shoot anything past 50 yards, and that is getting pretty damn long range for me....... so I don't need or desire any sort of boat tail bullet at all.

I like the 176 ER Raptor .338 fine, in larger capacity cases......... I once had a 338/08, 338 Federal, but I needed magazine length loaded rounds, the 176 ER was stupid trying to load that cartridge and make it fit the magazine...... Kinda turned me off of it a little...........Shot great, even loaded stupid deep, worked fine.... ended up getting rid of that thing anyway.......... I managed 2750 fps in that 18 inch gun, which was certainly viable terminally for that gun.......... My 338 Ultra does not like it at all? Not sure why? But my 330 WSMs both shoot great with it............ ??????? I would bet that if it were flat base it would be a different story, and easier to load....... But I am not shooting enough 338 to warrant the special order......

You would just have to give it a go in the 338-06 to see how it seats and overall length for the magazine.....But I would go for the fastest twist rate you can get as well........

Something you also might consider, especially going to Africa with this gun...... I have had very very good luck with the 200 gr ESP Raptor/Solid........This gives you lots of options, Raptor and a Solid if you need it........... It is also very accurate in my guns......... Yes, as a Raptor it is like a boat tail when dealing with loading, and you can only compress these so much, pushes powder to the side instead of straight down.......... but it does extreme as a ESP, (Enhanced System Projectile), trauma and or solid for deep diving.............

Brush has been mentioned as an issue for Raptors, and its true, on the flip side of this, (Pun Intended) as a Solid, these things will burn through anything, trees, limbs, obstacles and damn good insurance when your shot is the South end of a North Bound Critter...........It will get the job done.

 

[Pheroze]

Being apprehensive about the lighter bullet: so something like the 149 gr ESP Raptor or 150 grain Maximus in a 308 Norma Mag cartirdge for a creature as large as an eland would be effective? Is there no advantage to the 180gr Maximus over its smaller cousins?

 

[Bert the Turtle]

They happened to have one box of 0.423 raptors on sale. I suspect they will make for easy tracking on this years white tails!

 

[michael458]

so something like the 149 gr ESP Raptor or 150 grain Maximus in a 308 Norma Mag cartirdge for a creature as large as an eland would be effective?

As effective as anything you could use in .308 caliber most likely far more effective....... I would think both will exit broadside, how much more do you want? If I were stretching the capability of .308 caliber I would look at 130 FB Raptor, maybe the 150 FB Raptor......

Is there no advantage to the 180gr Maximus over its smaller cousins?

I believe that both 130-150 FB Raptors would exit broadside......... 180 Maximus would exit....... I run the 130s in 300 Winchester at 3400 fps........ I can't imagine needing anything beyond that, but I would not use .308 caliber in that circumstance anyway....... I have been recommending the 130s for Elk and such.......

Sorry, but most of my opinion on this is based on comparisons and test work.... I just have not hunted eland or similar with .308 caliber........ Based on what I think I know, 130-150 FB Raptors would be more than enough....... Eland I have shot have been with .358 , 458 and 500 calibers....... I can tell you the 500s work pretty damn good with a 350 ESP Raptor at 2800 fps....... eland don't like that much.

They happened to have one box of 0.423 raptors on sale. I suspect they will make for easy tracking on this years white tails!

Yeah, maybe that will work...... I have not done that either.... don't have .423s........

 

[Pheroze]

As effective as anything you could use in .308 caliber most likely far more effective....... I would think both will exit broadside, how much more do you want? If I were stretching the capability of .308 caliber I would look at 130 FB Raptor, maybe the 150 FB Raptor......

I believe that both 130-150 FB Raptors would exit broadside......... 180 Maximus would exit....... I run the 130s in 300 Winchester at 3400 fps........ I can't imagine needing anything beyond that, but I would not use .308 caliber in that circumstance anyway....... I have been recommending the 130s for Elk and such.......

Sorry, but most of my opinion on this is based on comparisons and test work.... I just have not hunted eland or similar with .308 caliber........ Based on what I think I know, 130-150 FB Raptors would be more than enough....... Eland I have shot have been with .358 , 458 and 500 calibers....... I can tell you the 500s work pretty damn good with a 350 ESP Raptor at 2800 fps....... eland don't like that much.

Yeah, maybe that will work...... I have not done that either.... don't have .423s........

Thank you, that is very helpful. All the best.

 

[Brian]

I should mention that I shot my cape buffalos with CEB Raptors .500 cal. at muzzle velocities below 2,000fps muzzle velocity and they performed perfectly.

It's probably not necessary to also mention, but I will and I hope that he won't mind, that michael458 is the man behind the Raptor bullet and the #13 Safari Solid bullet.

I have read that, over years of R&D in his own testing facility and in the African and Australian bush, he and his pals fired countless experimental bullets into controlled medium and they hunted many buffalo in developing these excellent bullets. You can google B&M Rifles and Cartridges for some great reading on the subject.

I have never met Michael458 but hope to some day. His work on developing the Raptor and the #13 Safari Solid is a significant development for dangerous game hunters.
We are grateful to him and the manufacturers.

 

[jwp475]

Go with the fastest twist rate you can get. If you can get faster than 1:10, do so. There is no down side to faster twist rates........ you can only gain, not loose....... it won't hurt with even lighter bullets to have faster twist.....

I have never seen faster twist being an issue with load development in anything I have done, but my small bore experience is extremely limited.......... as stated......... medium bores I have not seen any real problems, not because of faster twist rates..... I despise calibers between 223 and 308, I find them all finicky regardless of anything........ That is why I don't mess with them........ I have 308 from 1:8 to 1:10 and never seen any issues there. I believe most all my 338s are at least 1:10........ I shoot 338 WSM, 338 Win and 338 Ultra.......

I once had a 7.62X40 done by Wilson.... They put 1:14s on the guns, I requested 1:8, or worst case 1:10, the bastards refused, the gun would not shoot for crap......... Sent it to SSK and had a new 1;8 put on, and its a one hole deal now......

1:10 in 338 would be fine, but faster won't hurt either........ I had a rifle once, I forget the twist rate, but it would shoot the Raptors in a hole at 50, but if you simply added a talon tip to it, then it was sideways at 25... just adding that tiny bit of length and weight....... would have been just fine with even a slightly faster twist... and would not have hurt anything at all.........

With the big bores and solids, different story, that twist rate makes a big difference when talking about terminal penetration of solids..... Faster is REAL GOOD......... But not the subject in this thread......


Hmmm....... I would reconsider that........... really not any better off with that than your 338............ you need to make a move to .458 for that work..... Sorry, no offense, but that's what I think.

When I had my Highwall 30/06 rebored to 35 Whelen I went with a 20 twist. Shoots everything from 180 to 250 grains to 1/2 MOA at 200 yards or better. I also believe that more twist aids in teinal performance.

 

[jwp475]

When I had my Highwall 30/06 rebored to 35 Whelen I went with a 20 twist. Shoots everything from 180 to 250 grains to 1/2 MOA at 200 yards or better. I also believe that more twist aids in teinal performance.

Should read "aids in terminal performance"

 

[jwp475]

Should read "aids in terminal performance"

Should also read 10 twist not 20

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Ordered my bullets Saturday. Last box they had, on sale. Really good price. Arrived today. Box was unexpectedly heavy. Turns out, they threw in a partial box of the same bullets at no extra charge.

If the bullets perform half as well as the company, they will be fantastic. Very nice first impression!

Also, if there was ever a bullet that could kill by looks alone, this is it. The hollow point looks like it belongs on a 45 ACP it's so huge. A 325g bullet is going to be zipping right along from a 404. I have no doubt the tissue damage will be substantial.

 

[michael458]

Should also read 10 twist not 20

HEH....... @jwp475 you need to work on your typing skills........... I thought you had lost your damn mind..............LOL

I have never met Michael458 but hope to some day.

You always have a standing invite............Would be my pleasure I assure you.........