.303 sporter barrel length

[CoElkHunter]

Isn’t the Jungle Carbine notoriously uncomfortable to shoot?

I’ve shot mosin nagant carbines with standard ammunition and they have a pretty unpleasant report.

I had a M44 carbine. The felt recoil was nasty! It's gone now.

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

I had a M44 carbine. The felt recoil was nasty! It's gone now.

My dad has an m38. I hated shooting that thing. Apparently a lot of people reload carbine rounds for the 7.62x54R to help with that.

In general, I find mosin nagants to be about the least ergonomic rifle I’ve ever fired. Which certainly doesn’t help.

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

Interesting point. With a lot of featherweight rifles around in large calibers, are we becoming a physically weak race of hunters? Women carried and shot heavier guns last century.

I expect people in the last century carried what they did because they didn’t have much choice.

The same phenomenon is observed with backpacking and camping in general. In the days of canvas tents, that’s what you took with you or you just skipped a tent. I doubt many back then would have refused a tent with aluminum poles and synthetic fabric if it were available.

On the other hand you get folks who view carrying lighter and lighter gear as an end in itself and it does get silly. I’ve actually seen people argue that 308 is superior to 30-06 simply because it shaves off some weight due to the shorter action!

 

[Cervus elaphus]

I expect people in the last century carried what they did because they didn’t have much choice.

The same phenomenon is observed with backpacking and camping in general. In the days of canvas tents, that’s what you took with you or you just skipped a tent. I doubt many back then would have refused a tent with aluminum poles and synthetic fabric if it were available.

On the other hand you get folks who view carrying lighter and lighter gear as an end in itself and it does get silly. I’ve actually seen people argue that 308 is superior to 30-06 simply because it shaves off some weight due to the shorter action!

Yeah we're getting soft. Need to live off the grid in Alaska for a few winters

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

Yeah we're getting soft. Need to live off the grid in Alaska for a few winters

I’m good.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

I think it's more that with modern materials we can make that kind of rifle, and therefore that certain folks think that we should. Plus marketing which polarises the market. I'd also say that most people don't actually weigh their rifles in hunting configurations and so severly understimate the weight of what they're taking into the field. This isn't helped by 'optimistic' weight claims from manufacturers.

More generally though, it seems that most of the hunting rifles on sale today fit into two camps; 'superlite' or 'tactical/ target cross over'. The first group are marketed as being lighter than tradition dictates, whilst the latter are a fair bit heavier (especially when you fit the usual 5-25x50 or bigger optic).

As for the middle ground, I don't think it offers a 'USP' for the marketing department to sell it on. They're not ultra light and portable companions for your mountain adventures, but they're not in possession of 'features' which make them well suited to long shots / target shooting to 1000yds either. I think that makes them harder to sell, even though for most, they're actually the best tool for the job.

I think that the true number of todays hunters who physically couldn't use the usual 10lb all up classic hunting rifle for all their excursions is minimal, and what's more, that the true number of folks who gain real world benefit from losing that 2lb is also minimal, but thats the fashion, that's what people think they want, so that's what we get.

Good summary. There are places here in Australia where tracks can be utilised to get sedentary hunters into a shooting position rather than walking which I think is great - nobody should miss out. A lot of the new rifles I like in the medium calibers are lightweights but after listening to several hunters on this forum, it's not that difficult to add weight, bipod, scope, butt pouch, or even go the HB way. Yes we should take advantage of the new tech and at the same time preserve something of the old.
Cheers

 

[Cervus elaphus]

I’m good.

We know you're good R & L
You're a long way from Alaska !

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Thinking along the lines of the Scout rifle, what barrel length could you shorten a .303 sporter to?
I have read about the Garand with a 16" job, would the trusty old LE work at this length?

@Cervus elaphas
303 barrels come in three diameters
Slim barrel on the SMLE No1 mk111.
Medium barrel on the SMLE No4
And a heavy barrel made by Lithgow small arms in Australia.
The type of barrel you have will determine how far you can cut it down and still retain good harmonics. I have cut them down to 20" with no problems but with the No1 I had I tried 18 inches and the group went to patterns.
The best results I ever got was 18 and 1/8" with a H barrel from Lithgow. That thing would shoot house bricks all day at 300 yards with MkV11 military fmj ammo.
That length was worked out by my armourer father as the 303 usually exits the barrel at the top peak of the harmonics and that is what he came up with.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The original Lee Enfield No.5 'Jungle Carbine' had a 18.8" barrel and did ok with the standard military ammo, so I think you'd be fine down to at least 18", probably 16".

If you're home loading, fast powders and heavy bullets might be the way to go, to minimise muzzle flash if nothing else. It'll still be loud and with maybe a couple hundred fps lost though, same as any other short barrel centrefire.

@Alistair
The jungle carbine has the heavier No4 barrel on it but because of the bedding it was not known for good accuracy. Cut so No1 barrel down to 16" and accuracy goes out the window.
Chronograhed loads using military ammo went from close on 2460fps with the 25" barrel to 2,290 fps with a 20" barrel in MY rifle.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Ask away. I'm 182cm (5' 11 1/2") soaking wet. My BIL has my old .303 No.4 sporter and I have designs (with his permission of course) on shortening the barrel hence my post. I'm hovering around the 20" mark at the moment. As 99.9% of my use when I owned it was almost point blank range in the bush (jungli) there was no need for a longer barrel which just hangs up on tree bits. If it had been legal, I would have been better using a 12g with buckshot. Thanks again for your suggestion Prof. Where I come from, the game doesn't bite or claw (except the odd wild pig or two and sows are worse than boars in that department).

@Cervus elaphus

This is my little No1 mk111 with a H Lithgow barrel cut to 18 inches. I put the factory cheek rest on it for more comfortable scope use. Like the good Professor in 6 and a half foot and around 250#
Bob

 

[Cervus elaphus]

@Cervus elaphus
View attachment 395580
This is my little No1 mk111 with a H Lithgow barrel cut to 18 inches. I put the factory cheek rest on it for more comfortable scope use. Like the good Professor in 6 and a half foot and around 250#
Bob

that's a fine looking rifle Bob, I had both 5shot & 10shot mags for my three-oh. I know that Lithgow made rifles during WW2 but don't know if they still do.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I expect people in the last century carried what they did because they didn’t have much choice.

The same phenomenon is observed with backpacking and camping in general. In the days of canvas tents, that’s what you took with you or you just skipped a tent. I doubt many back then would have refused a tent with aluminum poles and synthetic fabric if it were available.

On the other hand you get folks who view carrying lighter and lighter gear as an end in itself and it does get silly. I’ve actually seen people argue that 308 is superior to 30-06 simply because it shaves off some weight due to the shorter action!

I like the comfort of staying in a tent, but alas, it often has been a fleeting dream. My father in law bought a nice outfitter tent a couple of years ago after his three season REI tent collapsed one elk hunting trip under fifteen inches of snow. In September after he bought it, we went sage grouse hunting and went to set up the tent up for the first time. Well, he had the floor but he FORGOT the CANVAS TENT! Sleeping on a tarp in your sleeping bag can be fun too, until it rains. The next elk season in October, he FORGETS the tent pole connectors! Fortunately, it was dry and fairly warm that trip. I still dream of sleeping in that tent. For me, I'll take a 6.5 Creedmoor over the .308 because it's lighter with a 16" barrel and with a $3k 6x18 or something Nightforce scope it'll be set up for 1k yard shots even at night (Nightforce?)?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

that's a fine looking rifle Bob, I had both 5shot & 10shot mags for my three-oh. I know that Lithgow made rifles during WW2 but don't know if they still do.

@Cervus elaphas
Yes they still do.
They make the Styer F90, a better much improved F88 and we even export it.
The H barrels for the 303 were heavier barrels made for completion shooting to be still within the rules. Last one I bought was $15 still in the grease and brown paper. They are still available. Walter is making new chambered about threaded barrels for the SMLE for around 450 bucks.

Bob

 

[Sarg]

I have about 25-30 (not including actions) .303's right now from MLM to SMLE, half are BSA Sporters/Lee Speeds the rest cut down military rifles, (mate said my place looked like Enfield a while back when I was fixing up fore woods) one full wood (maybe a NoI MKI on the way to) a BSA P14 sporter & a Mauser 93-96 sporter on the way .

Recently picked up a new H barrel in wrapper & a Westely Richards barrel to fit to Lee Speeds

I think it might be some type of disease ??

 

[CoElkHunter]

I have about 25-30 (not including actions) .303's right now from MLM to SMLE, half are BSA Sporters/Lee Speeds the rest cut down military rifles, (mate said my place looked like Enfield a while back when I was fixing up fore woods) one full wood (maybe a NoI MKI on the way to) a BSA P14 sporter & a Mauser 93-96 sporter on the way .

Recently picked up a new H barrel in wrapper & a Westely Richards barrel to fit to Lee Speeds

I think it might be some type of disease ??

View attachment 395598
View attachment 395599

Oh yeah, it's a disease alright! And you have it BAD and are spreading the virus throughout the AH community here. Put your mask on and go to bed! Ha! Ha! Ha!

 

[Cervus elaphus]

@Cervus elaphas
Yes they still do.
They make the Styer F90, a better much improved F88 and we even export it.
The H barrels for the 303 were heavier barrels made for completion shooting to be still within the rules. Last one I bought was $15 still in the grease and brown paper. They are still available. Walter is making new chambered about threaded barrels for the SMLE for around 450 bucks.

Bob

Brand new in the greaseproof for $15? that's theft by any definition !. I can imagine a production line of short barrel H carbines like you posted earlier. I really did like the one in the top photo. I nearly got to Lithgow a couple of years or so back but got stopped by the huge Blue Mountains fire and had to divert up to Dubbo to get to the New England highway. We nearly got to Bathurst but decided not to because that was the only exit west from the fire area. Could smell the smoke at Dubbo.
edit: Sorry Bob, the photos were in fact from Sarg, my bad (I shouldn't post before nap time)

 

[Cervus elaphus]

Oh yeah, it's a disease alright! And you have it BAD and are spreading the virus throughout the AH community here. Put your mask on and go to bed! Ha! Ha! Ha!

too late, we've all got it.
DON'T TAKE THE VACCINE !

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Brand new in the greaseproof for $15? that's theft by any definition !. I can imagine a production line of short barrel H carbines like you posted earlier. I really did like the one in the top photo. I nearly got to Lithgow a couple of years or so back but got stopped by the huge Blue Mountains fire and had to divert up to Dubbo to get to the New England highway. We nearly got to Bathurst but decided not to because that was the only exit west from the fire area. Could smell the smoke at Dubbo.
edit: Sorry Bob, the photos were in fact from Sarg, my bad (I shouldn't post before nap time)

@Cervus elaphas
That barrel price was near on 40 year ago. You can still find them on used guns.com.
Both Sarges rifles look nice.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I have about 25-30 (not including actions) .303's right now from MLM to SMLE, half are BSA Sporters/Lee Speeds the rest cut down military rifles, (mate said my place looked like Enfield a while back when I was fixing up fore woods) one full wood (maybe a NoI MKI on the way to) a BSA P14 sporter & a Mauser 93-96 sporter on the way .

Recently picked up a new H barrel in wrapper & a Westely Richards barrel to fit to Lee Speeds

I think it might be some type of disease ??

View attachment 395598
View attachment 395599

@Sarg
Where did you get your H barrel and what year is it. How much are they now. The one I got was almost 40 year ago.
That's a nice piece of timber. You haven't got a disease an affliction or obsession maybe.
Bob

 

[Sarg]

Bob, I was doing a bit of "picking" at another old shooters place & got a very good deal on a lot of parts, not sure on the year, is it stamped on there some where bud ?

I had another & I'm fitting a Lee Speed rib to it, but I'm scary slow lol