300gr Ballistic silver tips in a 458win?

[Ridge Runner]

One last point as charge is over 60 gr using a wlr or wlrm primer?

Try both Large Rifle and Large Rifle Magnum with your test loads to see which works best in your rifle. Depending on load and rifle the LR primers work best and in others Large Rifle Magnum primers work best.

In my 458WM test loads and in my rifle, Large Standard Rifle primers work best.

 

[Nyala23]

What I had utilized so far. Have been encouraged to utilize a different powder as case volume was only about 74% with h335. That charge was fine for a 45-70 but a touch light for a 458 with essentially the same case volume but need to keep safe. Thanks

 

[Just a dude in BC]

One last point as charge is over 60 gr using a wlr or wlrm primer?

It is not really the weight of charge that determines if you need a magnum primer or not. It is more related to the volume of the case, as you have to get the pressure inside that volume high enough to initiate the main charge. 458 is a large case, so a magnum primer is called for.

 

[Nyala23]

Thanks again!

 

[Ridge Runner]

It is not really the weight of charge that determines if you need a magnum primer or not. It is more related to the volume of the case, as you have to get the pressure inside that volume high enough to initiate the main charge. 458 is a large case, so a magnum primer is called for.

@Just a dude in BC

Reloading data does call for the use of magnum primers. However, standard primers work; Sometimes better, Not always better, than a magnum primers. Just another factor when developing an accurate load recipe.

The OP is specific about wanting 458WM information.

I have tested both magnum and standard LR primers, using the same test powder and same test powder charge grain weights. Each of the test loads using 10 rounds as a basis for accumulating test data for: accuracy, velocity, kinetic energy, effective range distances, pressure signs, and bullet drop.

Thus why I and others who reload refer to our load data being "My results, In My rifle".

A small standard pistol primer will ignite a large volume powder charge in a rifle cartridge. Is a small pistol primer the best choice? I don't know. Because I haven't, nor has anyone I know of, nor anyone or anything I have read has anyone tried using a small primer in a large caliber rifle recipe.

Pressure inside the case is cased by the "exploding" powder. Not by the heat generated by the primer. The primer has to be hot enough to effectively/ efficiently ignite the powder. And for the powder to completely "burn up" before exiting the barrel. Both LR standard and magnum primers are sufficient to insure the large powder charge to properly "burn up" down the barrel.

What does matter in large cases is having the proper minimum amount of powder for the primer to ignite the powder charge inside the brass case, allowing the bullet to exit the barrel, and having the least amount of "air pocket" between the powder charge and bullet. Thus the recommendations for "wadding" between the powder charge and bullet when using lighter powder charges.

 

[Nyala23]

Pressure is not what ignites the powder charge. Primers serve that function. The powder volume AND the ignition flare from the primer, it’s volume and reach help to determine along with burn rate of the powder how quickly the powder burn reaches peak pressure and whether it is a burn or B a catastrophic detonation.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Since this was derailed slightly but on the theme of trying to make lighter bullets work in large bore, I have just finished a failed experiment loading 307 gr Hammers for my 404 Jeffery. Tried a variety of powder weights using IMR4895. From 77 to 84 gr. Despite one particular manual's claim that 84 gr was "starting" load, it was obviously way too hot (flattened primer). 77 gr suggested by Hammer did not group at all (as in 8" @ 50 yards!) and still beat me up. I even tried pulling the bullets 0.03" above standard COAL per Hammer. Still would not group. I note from an older thread someone ran 400 gr 404J through the online calculator and came up with 71 gr IMR4895 @ ~2150 fps. So maybe even 77 gr was still way too much for 307 gr Hammers? Keep in mind I have limited access to powder varieties up here. Even more limited than USA and it's pretty bad down there. I have done well with Acurrate 4350 and 400 gr Barnes. No chrono so don't know the velocity but they group well and I'm not getting smashed in the face every shot. However, I would like to find an approx 300 gr bullet and load that works for recoil reduction (have already essentially lost left eye to retina detachments) and plains game. Anyway, shooting modern bullets it's just not necessary to be throwing 400 gr at buffalo any more. Any suggestions?

 

[Just a dude in BC]

@Ontario Hunter

Yes there are a few suggestions I can make, firstly lets deal with assumptions. By your “and still beat me up” sentence, I am assuming you want to find the crossroads of buffalo killing and reasonable recoil. Buffalo killing means accuracy + that 300gr pill moving at about 2150-2300fps.
And reasonable recoil is just lower recoil.

So, a 307gr pill moving at a particular velocity will always contribute the same to the total recoil of the system, BUT the amount of powder used to propel said bullet will also contribute a lot, and grain per grain the powder adds more to recoil that the bullet mass. So, what this means is you want a very bulky powder, that is fast burning to quickly spike the pressure to get the velocity you need, while also filling the case with a minimum amount of powder. For that I would try two powders. Varget and IMR 3031. With both I start around 70gr, and then move up or down depending on what you are getting. Both are easy to find in Canada, and I would start with 3031, and then move to varget.

You are going to run into the volume issue, so you may need to stuff some wadding in there. The other thing I have found with respect to accuracy, especially with monometal bullets. Is the importance of seating depth. So do play around with this. Once you find a load that gets you the velocity you like, then start varying the seating depths. Like 5 rounds with the bullet just touching the lands. 5 rounds 10 thou back from lands, 5 rounds 20 thou back… And so on. You will find a node where they shoot more accurately. With mono metal bullets I tend to start at 40 thou from the lands, and then make loads +- 10thou =- 20 thou and so on.

Now if I can make two specific recommendations you maybe don’t like, here they are:
1. Try a different bullet. https://store.prophetriver.com/north-fork-423-cal-340-gr-soft-point-50ct/ North Forks have been accurate in every gun I have tried them in. Here is a lighter weight one. Again 70gr of varget should be a good place to start.
2. Move to a different gun/cal. If you are backing down to a 300gr bullet and looking for lighter recoil. Something like a 9.3x62 might be ideal. It only takes about 52ish gr of varget to move a 300gr swift a frame at 2250~ish fps. This would be soft recoiling and deadly on buff… As a bonus you could load up some 250gr northforks or nosler accubonds and have it be a dual purpose gun for plains game. I shoot a 9.3x74r drilling with 250 northforks as my plains game gun, and is it sweet shooting and deadly.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter

Yes there are a few suggestions I can make, firstly lets deal with assumptions. By your “and still beat me up” sentence, I am assuming you want to find the crossroads of buffalo killing and reasonable recoil. Buffalo killing means accuracy + that 300gr pill moving at about 2150-2300fps.
And reasonable recoil is just lower recoil.

So, a 307gr pill moving at a particular velocity will always contribute the same to the total recoil of the system, BUT the amount of powder used to propel said bullet will also contribute a lot, and grain per grain the powder adds more to recoil that the bullet mass. So, what this means is you want a very bulky powder, that is fast burning to quickly spike the pressure to get the velocity you need, while also filling the case with a minimum amount of powder. For that I would try two powders. Varget and IMR 3031. With both I start around 70gr, and then move up or down depending on what you are getting. Both are easy to find in Canada, and I would start with 3031, and then move to varget.

You are going to run into the volume issue, so you may need to stuff some wadding in there. The other thing I have found with respect to accuracy, especially with monometal bullets. Is the importance of seating depth. So do play around with this. Once you find a load that gets you the velocity you like, then start varying the seating depths. Like 5 rounds with the bullet just touching the lands. 5 rounds 10 thou back from lands, 5 rounds 20 thou back… And so on. You will find a node where they shoot more accurately. With mono metal bullets I tend to start at 40 thou from the lands, and then make loads +- 10thou =- 20 thou and so on.

Now if I can make two specific recommendations you maybe don’t like, here they are:
1. Try a different bullet. https://store.prophetriver.com/north-fork-423-cal-340-gr-soft-point-50ct/ North Forks have been accurate in every gun I have tried them in. Here is a lighter weight one. Again 70gr of varget should be a good place to start.
2. Move to a different gun/cal. If you are backing down to a 300gr bullet and looking for lighter recoil. Something like a 9.3x62 might be ideal. It only takes about 52ish gr of varget to move a 300gr swift a frame at 2250~ish fps. This would be soft recoiling and deadly on buff… As a bonus you could load up some 250gr northforks or nosler accubonds and have it be a dual purpose gun for plains game. I shoot a 9.3x74r drilling with 250 northforks as my plains game gun, and is it sweet shooting and deadly.

Thanks very much. Varget seems very much in demand and not easily acquired. However, I'm fairly certain I can lay my hands on IMR3031. I only have two of the 307 gr Hammer bullets left of the trial pack they sent. I hesitate to invest a huge amount in a question mark. But maybe I could order another trial pack and try a different powder. If I can get those to behave reasonably, I'll think more seriously about investing in a $3/bullet variety.

Back at the range again today with the last of Accurate 4350 loaded with Barnes 400 gr X. It took a while to bring it back to zero after throwing the scope out of whack trying to make sense of the 307 bullets. Also had my 11 year-old grandson with me. Been introducing him to shooting this past week. He was using his great grandfather's .22 and shot his first buck tonight ... but we lost it. I taped a one dollar loonie coin to the target and he shot it off to parts unknown. We looked for at least a half hour but no blood trail. Gut shot I guess. Anyway, light was fading by the time we gave up and I brought the big gun out. I shot the 404 seven times from the bench at 100 meters before getting it where I wanted. Would have expedited the process greatly if I'd managed to sort out right from left when adjusting the scope!. Nice to have a young set of legs running up to mark the shots. Scope kissed me once lightly. Forgot to hang on tight. All shots from the bench and no trouble with recoil. I could manage it. Primers looked good. That load seems good to go for 400 gr. I have ordered more Accurate powder direct from the company. Barely had time to check the 03A3 30-06 with a new load using 165 gr Interlocks and IMR4895 inside once fired 1940 military brass. At fifty yards two bullets were in the same hole.

At 100 yard target I had just enough light for two more shots. MOA. Good to know I can make some use of the 4895 bought for the 307 gr 404 bullets. Primers popped a bit so I'll need to bump a grain or two.

 

[Nyala23]

One last point as charge is over 60 gr using a wlr or wlrm primer?

Any experience with aa powders. 3031 not available at present.

 

[Nyala23]

Any experience with aa powders. 3031 not available at present.

2230,2450

 

[Nyala23]

Any experience with aa powders. 3031 not available at present.

2230,2450

 

[Laniarius]

Thanks very much. Varget seems very much in demand and not easily acquired. However, I'm fairly certain I can lay my hands on IMR3031. I only have two of the 307 gr Hammer bullets left of the trial pack they sent. I hesitate to invest a huge amount in a question mark. But maybe I could order another trial pack and try a different powder. If I can get those to behave reasonably, I'll think more seriously about investing in a $3/bullet variety.

Back at the range again today with the last of Accurate 4350 loaded with Barnes 400 gr X. It took a while to bring it back to zero after throwing the scope out of whack trying to make sense of the 307 bullets. Also had my 11 year-old grandson with me. Been introducing him to shooting this past week. He was using his great grandfather's .22 and shot his first buck tonight ... but we lost it. I taped a one dollar loonie coin to the target and he shot it off to parts unknown. We looked for at least a half hour but no blood trail. Gut shot I guess. Anyway, light was fading by the time we gave up and I brought the big gun out. I shot the 404 seven times from the bench at 100 meters before getting it where I wanted. Would have expedited the process greatly if I'd managed to sort out right from left when adjusting the scope!. Nice to have a young set of legs running up to mark the shots. Scope kissed me once lightly. Forgot to hang on tight. All shots from the bench and no trouble with recoil. I could manage it. Primers looked good. That load seems good to go for 400 gr. I have ordered more Accurate powder direct from the company. Barely had time to check the 03A3 30-06 with a new load using 165 gr Interlocks and IMR4895 inside once fired 1940 military brass. At fifty yards two bullets were in the same hole.
View attachment 635647
At 100 yard target I had just enough light for two more shots. MOA. Good to know I can make some use of the 4895 bought for the 307 gr 404 bullets. Primers popped a bit so I'll need to bump a grain or two.

Varget was out of stock everywhere (in Canada) about a year or two ago but it's not hard to get now. But the price has gone from about $60 per pound to 90 or more in the past three or four years.

 

[Nyala23]

Before the hijack we were discussing downloading 458 to 45-70 performance to use for familiarization loads. Any last advice? Will be loading 2230 as it is available locally. Thanks to all who responded on this initially.

 

[GoexFFG]

58gr of Relader 7 and a 300gr Hornady HP at 2060fps. Only problem is they are kinda short but will feed if you take your time. Deadly on hogs.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Base integrity...the base of the jacket will remain attached to the sides. The core will have made like Elvis and left the building. I'd have to say that hitting a whitetail with a .45-70 bullet above 2000 fps, the user should expect rapid disintegration. If it goes through the ribs, it's an instant incapacitation, but if it hit the shoulder it could be iffy. I'd love to see it on groundhogs. Meat grinding freight train I'd suppose.