.270 Winchester for plains game

[kerymac]

Ah sestoppelman, the voice of wisdom!

 

[sestoppelman]

Diamond, Of course, which is why I specified, all other things being equal, including the bullet brand. We dont compare a cup and core Speer to a Barnes TripleShock.

 

[AlSpaeth]

Today one of our clients hunted a great kudu bull with a 270 Win. He insisted in the caliber. Perfect shot, just behind the shoulder... and we tracked the bull for half a kilometer trough the thicest bush of the area... even with a perfect shot.

Definitely... you can hunt almost all the plains game species with that caliber, but 270 Win is very limited stopping power... and you will be forced to track many wounded animals. And REMEMBER if you hit any antelope, and there is blood, that is your animal and your hunt, you pay it... and nobody likes to pay a wounded and never founded animal.

Jose

My experience as well with the .270. Mostly with factory ammo. Poor expansion resulting in a clean exit wound or sometimes bullet breaks up on bone resulting in many wounded animals. Poor to zreo weight retention. Never had the problem with .30 cals. I really can't give a technical explination - just experience. Similar problems with 7mm mags. We insisted on .30 cal minimum for our clients on anything bigger than an impala. I'm not anti .270 but it's not enough for our larger plains game with factory ammo. If you own one already, then hand load with heads designed for expansion and weight retention like the Nosler partition not less than 150gr - and slow it down - 2600-2700fps is plenty - load for accuracy - not speed.
Diameter makes a difference. I do believe Taylor's KO rating works fo Africa.
A 150gr .308 at 2700fps gives a Taylor KO = 15.
A 165gr .30-06 at 2700fps give a KO = 19.
Energy and momentum are similar but the 30-06 KO is a 27 percent improvement over the .270.
I never hunted with Jack Oconnor but I have yet to meet anyone who is dumb enough to even try to shoot an antelope at 500 yds. Elmar Keith claimed a 600 yd shot with a short barreled revolver deer hunting. I hope it was fiction. At those distances bullet drop is measured in yards - not inches.
Nothing ruins a safari quicker than time wasted looking for wounded animals. The hunter starts to doubt himself or his rifle and looses his confidence.
It still happens to the best of us when least expected - but follow Ruark's advice and "use enough gun". Then practice on the range at 100, 150, 200, and 250 yds. Wounded animals should be few or none. Use a range finder as distances are difficult to to judge over the vast open plains of the Free State and Eastern Cape. You should never need to shoot beyond 250 yds. if so, fire your lazy PH.
Use shooting sticks. Shoot with confidence and know your own limitations.
Happy hunting

 

[sestoppelman]

Yes, but blaming a cartridge for poor bullet performance is hardly fair to any round. Poor bullets come in all calibers, not just .270. Given the same brand bullet of the same weight at the same velocity in a .270 and an '06 under the same conditions on the same animal, no difference in killing power. They are just too close together in capabilities. Its the same bloody case.

 

[kerymac]

Federal makes a dandy 150-grain Nosler bullet load for the .270. It groups right with my handloads with the same bullet, so I assume it produces about the same velocity although I have not chronographed it. My handloads chronograph at 2900 fps. out of a 22" pre-64 Model 70. If you would like to read about and see a picture of this Jerry Fisher stocked rifle and the kudu I took with it, see "A Classic Gets to Africa" in the One Good Gun section of the 94 Gun Digest. This rifle first appeared in the custom guns section of the 64 Gun Digest just after it was finished, and it was fun to see it return to those pages exactly 30 years later.

 

[AlSpaeth]

Yes, but blaming a cartridge for poor bullet performance is hardly fair to any round. Poor bullets come in all calibers, not just .270. Given the same brand bullet of the same weight at the same velocity in a .270 and an '06 under the same conditions on the same animal, no difference in killing power. They are just too close together in capabilities. Its the same bloody case.

Agreed on bullets - hence my recommendations.
Disagree on calibers - 30-06 is my choice over a 270 for all the reasons given above.
270 came out in 1925. It was a necked down 30-06 famous for pushing a 130gr bullet at over 3,000 ft/sec.
In 1963 the 300 Win Mag came out and gave us a 30 cal pushing a 180gr bullet over 3,000 ft/sec.
We all know that a 180gr bullet is preferable for plains game if you feel you need over 3,000 ft/sec.
Trying to compensate by loading a 270 with 150 or 160gr heads defeats the 3,000 ft/sec it was famous for.
Many hunters are not comfortable with Magnum recoil and can't shoot well with a 300 mag.
I use a 300 H&H as a backup rifle for plains game loaded with 180gr Noslers at 3050 ft/sec. A backup shot at a wounded antelope is sometimes necessary at 300+ yds. which is where the 300 mags are handy for a PH.
For normal hunting 30-06 is ideal for our conditions.
For "varmit" hunting (jackal, lynx, baboons etc) I prefer a 243 or even 25-06 to the 270.

 

[sestoppelman]

I remember the article Kerymac, in fact have that issue and will look for it.

And Al, you can get the 150gr to 3000fps in the .270 with handloads. Jack O'Oconnor killed more than a few elk with his .270 using the 130 Silvertip which by today's standard is not a premium bullet. Many opine that elk are tougher than most African plains game so it cannot be too bad a round. With good loads I would not be afraid to use it in Africa though it would not be my personal choice. I had planned to use a similar round, the 7X64 in Zim this June but since eland is on the menu, I opted for my 9.3x62 instead.

 

[trigger creep]

As Kerymac points out, this is a silly argument thats been going on since before most of us were born. To say that the '06 is "a lot more powerful" than the .270 is inaccurate at best. Yes, the '06 may have the advantage of handling heavier bullets for larger game, but other than that, they are two peas in a pod and I seriously doubt any game animal hit by a .270 150 gr, or an '06 150-165gr could tell the difference. Both are dead, given the same quality bullet at the same velocity, hit in the same place. After all the .270 is nothing more than a necked down '06 so where is the big difference. And in theory at least the smaller caliber of the same weight bullet as the larger caliber will out penetrate the larger caliber, we all know that. O'Connor put it best about these arguments saying, "anyone trying to make a big case for one over the other is beating a pretty dead horse".

Very true, but arguements over this very subject will never cease. When I started this thread, I was trying to find out what the people who actually hunt in Africa think of the .270. I have read a lot of contradicting posts (as you would expect), but I have yet to be convinced I need to buy a .30-06 to hunt plainsgame.


Thanks for all of your posts (including you .270 haters ).

 

[trigger creep]

Many opine that elk are tougher than most African plains game so it cannot be too bad a round..

Not according to people on another forum they aren't tough! They supposedly use .243's and .25-06's every year and kill their Elk just as dead as people with .270's and .30-06's. And don't even mention the word .300 magnum on their, they will eat you alive!

 

[enysse]

Well it's hard to argue that the 30-06 will be better than a 270 Win. , unless you move up to 180 gr. bullets. Then I think you have a gun that will hunt every plains game animal in Africa.

I love the 270 Win., it's just that you will have to limit your shot opportunities....which I don't like at all. And some PH's would get aggravated over the fact they had to pass a animal...because the shot angle was bad....or that it was a 270 Win.

I would limit shots to broadside or quartering away...I wouldn't take any other shot. Otherwise you might lose a animal.

And for the record, I feel the elk is tougher than a kudu.

 

[kerymac]

So Christian my man, have you about had enough fun with this? My last thought on the matter is that I know I would have been just as happy with a 30-06 all these years for use on just about everything, but like having had a wonderful old dog, I am very glad I got to know my .270. It has never let me down. If I lived in Africa and especially did any PH work, I am sure I would have wanted something a bit bigger for all situations which might arise. My PH in Zimbabwe had one rifle to his name, an old battered CZ .375 with a safety that didn't work! It could be put on, but when off had the charming habit of putting itself back on if the bolt were worked rapidly. And this guy was going to be my back-up in case of buff charges? And he was quibbling about my .270 on kudu? I have a custom Ruger M77 30-06 which I almost took to Africa, one reason being that it produced killer velocities with 220-grain softs and solids (Hornady made great steel-jacketed .30 solids for awhile). With a stiff but not excessive charge of IMR 4350 (see Third Edition Horn. Manual) it chronographed at 2600 fps out of the Ruger 22" barrel. Felt more like a .338 from the bench and no doubt would have been better for dealing with a snared buff that I had to use my .270 on. Still, I loved that old M70 and am really glad that I took it even though I was worried that something might happen to it. When anyone asks me what was the scariest thing I did on my great African adventure, I always say: "Carrying my old M70 on a bus from LaGuardia to JFK in New York." Good hunting my friend.

 

[trigger creep]

My experience as well with the .270. Mostly with factory ammo. Poor expansion resulting in a clean exit wound or sometimes bullet breaks up on bone resulting in many wounded animals. Poor to zreo weight retention. Never had the problem with .30 cals. I really can't give a technical explination - just experience. Similar problems with 7mm mags. We insisted on .30 cal minimum for our clients on anything bigger than an impala. I'm not anti .270 but it's not enough for our larger plains game with factory ammo. If you own one already, then hand load with heads designed for expansion and weight retention like the Nosler partition not less than 150gr - and slow it down - 2600-2700fps is plenty - load for accuracy - not speed.
Diameter makes a difference. I do believe Taylor's KO rating works fo Africa.
A 150gr .308 at 2700fps gives a Taylor KO = 15.
A 165gr .30-06 at 2700fps give a KO = 19.
Energy and momentum are similar but the 30-06 KO is a 27 percent improvement over the .270.
I never hunted with Jack Oconnor but I have yet to meet anyone who is dumb enough to even try to shoot an antelope at 500 yds. Elmar Keith claimed a 600 yd shot with a short barreled revolver deer hunting. I hope it was fiction. At those distances bullet drop is measured in yards - not inches.
Nothing ruins a safari quicker than time wasted looking for wounded animals. The hunter starts to doubt himself or his rifle and looses his confidence.
It still happens to the best of us when least expected - but follow Ruark's advice and "use enough gun". Then practice on the range at 100, 150, 200, and 250 yds. Wounded animals should be few or none. Use a range finder as distances are difficult to to judge over the vast open plains of the Free State and Eastern Cape. You should never need to shoot beyond 250 yds. if so, fire your lazy PH.
Use shooting sticks. Shoot with confidence and know your own limitations.
Happy hunting

I have not had any problems with getting the .270 150 grain to expand, even on White-Tailed Deer. I shot a Deer this past year (Federal 150 grain Power-shok), right through the shoulder, and it performed flawlessly. Not much meat damage, but enough to kill the Deer quickly.

Me and my dad also did penetration tests, and the 150 Grain Remgton Cor-Lokt expanded every bit as fast as the 180 grain out of the .30-06.

I guess everyone has different experiences (probably due to bullet choice).

 

[ILCAPO]

Code4. What disappointed you about the 9.3x62 Mauser? I'm planning on bringing my .35 Whelen, which isn't much different with the hotter loads like those from Double Tap. That said, it shoots much milder rounds than the Mauser if you use the standards. My second choice is either a .30-06 or a .280 Remington, where are essentially your .308W and 7x57 Mauser on steriods.

 

[colorado]

I've had great luck on everything from deer, elk, black bear and one grizzly bear with my 270 shooting 150g Nosler Partitions. No lost animals, most were dead right there, and nothing required two shots except the grizzly which I first shot at 10 yards and it was coming pretty fast.. If you shoot your 270 well, and are comfortable with it, I recommend you take it.

 

[Joseph Snyder]

Though I prefer the .308, the .270 is fine for Antelope.

 

[Bobpuckett]

Here are some charts to compare Hope it helps out.



Ballistics Table in Yards 243 Win 80 gr., .300 B.C. Hornady.com - Accurate, Deadly, Dependable - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 3078 2916 2760 2464 2187 1928 1690
Energy (ft.-lb.) 1683 1511 1354 1079 850 660 507
Trajectory (100 yd. zero) -1.5 -0.2 0.0 -3.1 -11.9 -28.0 -53.5
Come Up in MOA -1.5 0.5 0.0 1.5 3.8 6.7 10.2


Ballistics Table in Yards 270 Win 150 gr., .460 B.C. Hornady.com - Accurate, Deadly, Dependable - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2651 2555 2460 2278 2103 1936 1777
Energy (ft.-lb.) 2341 2174 2016 1728 1472 1248 1052
Trajectory (100 yd. zero) -1.5 -0.1 0.0 -4.2 -15.2 -34.0 -62.2
Come Up in MOA -1.5 0.2 0.0 2.0 4.8 8.1 11.9


Ballistics Table in Yards 30-06 150 gr., .415 B.C. Hornady.com - Accurate, Deadly, Dependable - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2856 2744 2635 2425 2225 2034 1853
Energy (ft.-lb.) 2717 2508 2313 1959 1648 1378 1144
Trajectory (100 yd. zero) -1.5 -0.2 0.0 -3.5 -12.9 -29.3 -54.2
Come Up in MOA -1.5 0.3 0.0 1.7 4.1 7.0 10.4

 

[AlSpaeth]

Forget- Christian has wasted enough of our time. There is no comparison between a 30-06 and a 270. Just use a 165/167gr for long shots on plains game or a 180gr in thick bush/woods. Hundreds of articles have been written by those with far more knowledge than me. A 150gr 30-06 bullet will give you as many wounded animals as a 270 and NO caliber will make you a good shot without LOTS of time on the range and a cool head when you actually have a trophy in your sights. Karamogo Bell killed hundres of elephants with a 7X57 but he was a profesional with years of experience on thousands of animals. I admire him but wouldn't recommend it to anyone. This whole thread sounds like somebody's spoiled brat trying to sound like he is an "expert".
Remember, an "ex" is a "has-been" and a "spert" is just a drip under pressure. Shoot what you like but pay for your wounded animals and have some compassion for those you never find. Ruark said "Use enough gun". Animals can't read ballistics charts. Those of us who have seen good hunters fire hundreds of shots with a 270 would always recommend a 30-06. You might drop an elephant with a 22LR eye shot but please stop wasting my time with six pages of crap in this thread.
Whitetail live in woods. I grew up in Michigan and never shot a deer at over 30 yds. I used a Marlin 30-30 and it never failed me - but it's not for Africa.

 

[Mike70560]

Al,

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

The 270-30-06 argument has been going on since before I was born and I am almost old enough to be Trigger Creep's grandfather. Let him have some fun with it too.

He has not wasted my time yet. I rather the 30-06, as the man said the 270 is a damn fine coyote rifle.

I am not an expert either, just play one on the internet.

 

[AlSpaeth]

My aplogies if you were offended. 270 is just a "necked down" 30-06. Trigger Creep (Christian) is just a "necked down" hunter as well in my humble opinion.

 

[Joseph Snyder]

My aplogies if you were offended. 270 is just a "necked down" 30-06. Trigger Creep (Christian) is just a "necked down" hunter as well in my humble opinion.

Boy, where'd you get your 'humble' opinion? A cereal box? I think you've been out in the sun too long...