2600 fps "cut off point" for DRT behaviour?

[Madis]

I formed the Opinion that Nathan Foster has a loyal following, I almost used the term cult following.
I take from it the bits I believe and can’t attest to from my experiences.

He is knowledgeable but we cannot replicate field shots to prove or disprove anyone persons theory. His interests are building his business on his reputation he is not a contributing writer but this website and his publishing are his bread and butter. That is good for him he built this for himself but I don’t hang on every word he says either.

That's a rather unassailable line of reasoning there. The proof behind your reasoning is that he has a bunch of us talking about his business on another forum. Same could be said about Weatherby and his .257, which seems to be a darling in this thread. That's some savvy businessmen!

 

[Shootist43]

Madis, I have to admit that I've never read the article referencing the 2600 FPS and DRT behavior. After reading it I see where you are coming from. However in that same article Nathan goes on to discuss "quick" kills but in doing so brings a lot of other information to the table. The 2600 FPS is but one of the critical factors to be considered when choosing which rifle and load combination to use on any given animal. Considering Nathan Foster's writings, I consider them to be more correct than those of any other single individual.

BTW where in Canada do you live? I live in Michigan about 2 miles as the crow flies from Amherstburg, which is South of Windsor, Ontario.

 

[crs]

Having just read all of the above, I now remember why I am not familiar with the boring works of Nathan Foster, but do agree with Ragman's real world opinion of the .308 !

 

[One Day...]

If you're still reading this, and noticing a slew of replies by me in series, I'm rather taken aback at the number and quality of replies I received,. In an age when most new forum posters are treated to "STFU and GTFO n00b" I'm a little bit shocked. Thank you all. I guess this is what I get for making a drive-by post on a Friday afternoon after work and then leaving town to go hunting, only to come back to over a dozen quality replies. That'll learn me.

Well, this is THE critical difference between AH.com and many other blogs. AH members tend to be gentlemen more interested in explaining and substantiating their perspective, rather than hammering terminally superior and condescending "opinions". There is no qualification required for opinions................ This may all have to do with the fact that most of us on AH are actual practitioners as opposed to internet experts

Also, our AfricaHunting.com founder Jerome has a strict policy about the forum not becoming a place of abuse, and I suspect that this has a lot to do with the quality of the membership and posts

Question you for you then: ... Is the 2-300 fps extra of the .257 over the .25-06 the deciding factor (assuming good shot placement and identical projectiles)?

I fully intend to continue using the .257 Wby as my "light" rifle in my 3 rifles African battery. In the "light" category, I own and have used extensively .243, 6 mm Rem, .270 Win, 7x64, 7x65R, 7 Rem Mag, and yes there clearly seems to be a difference. In my experience, the 6 Rem and .270 Win can produce spectacular DRT kills with double lungs shots, but at closer range. As stated before, since diameter and bullet weight can hardly be credited for the .257 Wby lethality, it is hard to escape the conclusion that velocity is the differentiating factor...

Question you for you then: If you were to continue shooting game with your .257 in your experiment and racked up a reasonable sample size, say 100 animals, would you still be batting 1.000 on DRT versus runners?

Regarding relying on speed to kill, my answer is emphatically "no." While I do not have 100 kills with the .257 Wby, I passed that bar some years ago with combined calibers and I am convinced that traumatic damages to respiratory / circulatory / musculoskeletal systems is what kills. Speed above 2600 fps clearly produces immediate incapacitation but I do not know if it kills or only stuns. I therefore edge my bet with the .257 Wby by shooting the 100 gr TTSX. To this day I have no recovered one, even from a 500 lbs. Roan. Every shoot has been a pass through with a quarter-sized exit hole and utter destruction of the thoracic cage, which is the target of my preferred double-lung shot. I therefore rely on mechanical damage for killing combined with speed for instant incapacitation.

 

[TMac]

I'd tend to agree with you, yet Foster claims the reverse. To wit:

From https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html
In effect, he claims due to the large sample size, that there is demonstrable effect at 2600+ [small bores] vs. 2550-. Thoughts?

I think he is giving a general guideline but is stating it in more of a hard rule way. I will say the quickest kills I’ve had on mule deer were from a 25-06 shooting 117gr. Hornady Interlocks. Probably some combo of an easily shootable set up, good velocity and bullet construction. When placed right, it was lights out.

 

[AZDAVE]

I agree on that AH is a group of gentlemen and women that treat each other with respect and we all try and help others understand and expand our knowledge. For this I am very grateful and honored to communicate with good people.

We as humans like to have things neatly fit into categories neatly and try to come up with mathematical type descriptions (Kinetic energy, TKO, various types of trauma to life giving systems in all kritters that have blood pumping and breath air) The one thing that can't be put into a mathematical formula is the "WILL TO LIVE" that is the variable that in many cases just leaves us scratching our heads as to why that animal ran or I can believe how long it lived with heart and lungs shot out.

My wifes honey badger comes to mind as she shot it in the neck split the spine in half (Didn't completely sever) spun it out of the tree like a frisbee, used a 7mm with the impact velocity of 2750. We got out of the blind and walked up to it and it was still moving it's front legs and trying very hard to bite anything close. The PH had her shot it between the shoulder blades and through the lungs with his 9mm. He took 5 minutes to completely expire. When he was skinned the heart and lungs were pulp and the will to live is the only explanation I can come up with. And through out the history of mankind there have been warriors that have survived all manner of wounds and trauma where they lived and there is no medical reason why they should have.

I really like to see the threads where we can discuss the theory's that have been researched and compare them with our actual in field experiences. I am sure that the nomadic hunters or 10,000 years ago had similar discussions around the fire on how hard that little mastodon was to kill vs the huge one we got last year.

 

[CBH Australia]

I've been a long time hunter and long time reader of Nathan Foster's opinions at Terminal Ballistics Research (by the by, he penned an article for Norma recently). Needless to say, I have the utmost respect for his experience and his writing. If one were to sum up the theme of his writing, he swears by 2600 fps being the cut off point to initiate hydrostatic shock or DRT in game when shooting small bores and even some light medium bores (8mm to .338). However, I've never been able to reconcile this in practice.

His logic quite frankly flies in the face of my personal experience, the experience of my hunting buddies, the experience of many of the sentiments on this board and elsewhere, the experience of professional hunters going all the way back to Taylor, and to studies conducted by governments (South Carolina study). That collective experience being that well shot game animals will run approx 50% of the time, regardless of calibre or velocity and; that medium bores starting at or around .338 punch above their weight with high SD bullets, even at sub-2600 fps velocities.

I'm not going to bore you with many of my personal hunting anecdotes, but two come to mind and are relevant. Four years ago I shot a whitetail doe at 90 long paces with a .25-06 Ballistic Tip just forward of the foreleg. She splayed out when hit, popped up, and took off like a rocket. It took 3 of us and a dog to eventually find her, several hours later. The single shot had turned her boiler room into chunky salsa. By all accounts, and according to Foster, that doe should have been DRT. Conversely, 2 years ago my buddy shot a moose at a laser-verified 245 yards with a loaner .270 with a rear lung shot. It was a big one, and it dropped on the spot, again hit with a small-bore frangible bullet at below 2600 fps, with a less than perfect shot, contrary to Foster's writings.

As an another example, Taylor wrote very highly of the .318 Westley Richards and .333 Jeffery (both roughly equivalent to a .338-06): with 250 grain bullets at 2400-2500 fps and 300 grain bullets at 2200 fps, respectively. And if you read that South Carolina study, whitetails will run 50% of the time when well shot with ANY smallbore calibre from .243 to .30.

The purpose of the this post was not to bash Foster, as I have great respect for his experience but as a discussion to help me decide what to build or purchase as I upgrade my battery. Do I build a Foster-style large big-game rifle, like a .338 to .375 magnum Sendero to hedge my bets at my expected shooting distances from 30-300 metres or go old-school with a .338-06 or a 9.3x62 shooting high SD bullets at medium velocities (and have lighter and handier rifle)? I like the extra insurance I get when adopting the Foster-style approach, but the older approach still makes a lot of sense because seldom have I seen, let alone shot, a large big-game animal past 175 metres.

That's a rather unassailable line of reasoning there. The proof behind your reasoning is that he has a bunch of us talking about his business on another forum. Same could be said about Weatherby and his .257, which seems to be a darling in this thread. That's some savvy businessmen!

Madis, Welcome , and I’m not going to bash his writing either the knowledge base is good.
I think it’s hard to prove those theories and particuarly in the field, as you opening posts suggests you have made observations contrary Fosters writings.

What we really need are more PHs to chime in on their observations, they must observe 1000s of game taken where they are mostly watching the shot, maybe without overthinking the impact velocities etc but I’m sure sometimes certain cartridges must have shown different performance for various reasons. Is being under gunned relevant to impact velocity or do they sometimes feel it’s the bore diameter.

 

[Madis]

What we really need are more PHs to chime in on their observations, they must observe 1000s of game taken where they are mostly watching the shot, maybe without overthinking the impact velocities etc but I’m sure sometimes certain cartridges must have shown different performance for various reasons. Is being under gunned relevant to impact velocity or do they sometimes feel it’s the bore diameter.

Thank you. Wouldn't it make sense to create a central database similar SC deer study except with data fed in from PH's and hunters all over the world? Doesn't Boone & Crockett already have all this data? The sample size would become huge in short order and would finally settle the eternal questions about what works and what doesn't? If anyone has read the HERO database information by Colonel Trevor Dupuy, he attempted the same thing but with military combat results information and attempted to, successfully in my opinion, quantify combat results. Why do we have to rely and hearsay and anecdotal evidence to answer simple questions such as: what projectile at which speed works effectively on which breed of animal? This is very much what I believe Nathan Foster set out to do while writing his voluminous website. Instead, we rely on opinions from our circle of friends, and worse yet, the opinions of Internet denizens, most of which are armchair ballisticians at best, vapid liars at worst (present company excluded). Arguably worse is the pay-to-play gun magazine hacks, who wax poetic about how great the next speed demon cartridge is, without of shred of evidence. And a nod to you @AZDAVE, you hit the nail on the head with this comment.

I really like to see the threads where we can discuss the theory's that have been researched and compare them with our actual in field experiences. I am sure that the nomadic hunters or 10,000 years ago had similar discussions around the fire on how hard that little mastodon was to kill vs the huge one we got last year.

We live in the information age and I'm a data scientist, why does all this have to be shrouded in mystery?

 

[CBH Australia]

Thank you. Wouldn't it make sense to create a central database similar SC deer study except with data fed in from PH's and hunters all over the world? Doesn't Boone & Crockett already have all this data? The sample size would become huge in short order and would finally settle the eternal questions about what works and what doesn't? If anyone has read the HERO database information by Colonel Trevor Dupuy, he attempted the same thing but with military combat results information and attempted to, successfully in my opinion, quantify combat results. Why do we have to rely and hearsay and anecdotal evidence to answer simple questions such as: what projectile at which speed works effectively on which breed of animal? This is very much what I believe Nathan Foster set out to do while writing his voluminous website. Instead, we rely on opinions from our circle of friends, and worse yet, the opinions of Internet denizens, most of which are armchair ballisticians at best, vapid liars at worst (present company excluded). Arguably worse is the pay-to-play gun magazine hacks, who wax poetic about how great the next speed demon cartridge is, without of shred of evidence. And a nod to you @AZDAVE, you hit the nail on the head with this comment.

We live in the information age and I'm a data scientist, why does all this have to be shrouded in mystery?

Our opinions and preferences will get in the way,
Unfortunately these are not scientific and repeatable experiments.
One bloke hear who has shot ons of game and culls does not consider Woodleigh a premium bullet. Geoff McDonald of Woodleigh has done extensive testing and created his own logs and records, Perhaps he has not published as much as Nathan Foster but his projectiles are sold worldwide and loaded commercially.
But wait, someone will disregard those as Swift A Frames and North Fork trump those. If Nathan Foster or others can influence a major company to load Perigrine then all the rest will be thrown under the bus.
As to why some game run when they should be dead, Maybe the odd one does but good hits with good ammo should anchor the animal nerves and adrenaline can only do so much if the vitals are properly damaged it should expire quickly.

 

[colorado]

Having used a 270 Win as my primary hunting weapon for 30 some years, some years in the field for in excess of 50 days, I believe velocity combined with the appropriate bullet construction (for me a 150g Partition at 3000 fps), seemed to be the perfect combination. Taking the argument to the absurd though, my 500 Jeffery shooting at a paltry 2300 fps with a bullet frontal area over 3 times as large hits like a Mack Truck. I killed dozens of elk with my 270 all one shot kills except for a couple of walk up finishing shots. I have only killed one with my 500 Jeffery. I do have an old Japanese made Mark V in 270 Weatherby I plan to try out this coming year. A 150g Partition at 3250 fps should make an impression.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I've been a long time hunter and long time reader of Nathan Foster's opinions at Terminal Ballistics Research (by the by, he penned an article for Norma recently). Needless to say, I have the utmost respect for his experience and his writing. If one were to sum up the theme of his writing, he swears by 2600 fps being the cut off point to initiate hydrostatic shock or DRT in game when shooting small bores and even some light medium bores (8mm to .338). However, I've never been able to reconcile this in practice.

His logic quite frankly flies in the face of my personal experience, the experience of my hunting buddies, the experience of many of the sentiments on this board and elsewhere, the experience of professional hunters going all the way back to Taylor, and to studies conducted by governments (South Carolina study). That collective experience being that well shot game animals will run approx 50% of the time, regardless of calibre or velocity and; that medium bores starting at or around .338 punch above their weight with high SD bullets, even at sub-2600 fps velocities.

I'm not going to bore you with many of my personal hunting anecdotes, but two come to mind and are relevant. Four years ago I shot a whitetail doe at 90 long paces with a .25-06 Ballistic Tip just forward of the foreleg. She splayed out when hit, popped up, and took off like a rocket. It took 3 of us and a dog to eventually find her, several hours later. The single shot had turned her boiler room into chunky salsa. By all accounts, and according to Foster, that doe should have been DRT. Conversely, 2 years ago my buddy shot a moose at a laser-verified 245 yards with a loaner .270 with a rear lung shot. It was a big one, and it dropped on the spot, again hit with a small-bore frangible bullet at below 2600 fps, with a less than perfect shot, contrary to Foster's writings.

As an another example, Taylor wrote very highly of the .318 Westley Richards and .333 Jeffery (both roughly equivalent to a .338-06): with 250 grain bullets at 2400-2500 fps and 300 grain bullets at 2200 fps, respectively. And if you read that South Carolina study, whitetails will run 50% of the time when well shot with ANY smallbore calibre from .243 to .30.

The purpose of the this post was not to bash Foster, as I have great respect for his experience but as a discussion to help me decide what to build or purchase as I upgrade my battery. Do I build a Foster-style large big-game rifle, like a .338 to .375 magnum Sendero to hedge my bets at my expected shooting distances from 30-300 metres or go old-school with a .338-06 or a 9.3x62 shooting high SD bullets at medium velocities (and have lighter and handier rifle)? I like the extra insurance I get when adopting the Foster-style approach, but the older approach still makes a lot of sense because seldom have I seen, let alone shot, a large big-game animal past 175 metres.

@Madison
I have personally found that smaller deer like fallow, goats and pigs are 99% DRT with light high velocity bullets like the 117grain SST in 25 cal started at 3,300 plus fps or the Barnes 25 cal 100grain Barnes TTSX started at 3,600 plus fps.
On the other hand everything I've hit with a 35 cal 225gn or 250gn projectiles at 2,700 to 2,900 fps is either DRT or a short run on any animal.
All this is dependent on shot placement, projectile construction and above all else the animal. No two animals will react the same with the same scenario.
ANIMALS ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES AND NO TWO WILL REACT THE SAME WAY WHEN SHOT. I have seen a head shot cat run 50 yards and a poorly shot goat drop on the spot.
Nathan does brilliant work based on actual FIELD experience and his studies give a real world indication of what happens. When building my Whelen I rang and discussed it with him using the velocity I was getting. He advised me to read the 358 Norma section to give me a better idea and he was pretty spot on. He is a very easy man to talk to and extremely knowledgeable.
Bob
A

 

[ZG47]

Do not forget rotational velocity. With a 1-10” twist as in most .270s and .30-06s the rotational velocity is 1.2x the muzzle velocity and according to a gunsmith/hunter/1,000 yard shooter whom I know; the rotational velocity stays pretty much constant until the bullet goes subsonic.
The rumours in WWI about ‘Dum Dum’ bullets were wild supposition based upon the effects of the new pointed bullets, i.e. .30 cal .303, 8mm (and possibly 7mm) being fired at higher velocities than the older roundnose bullets for which the relatively fast twist barrels in contemporary military rifles had been designed.
Target accuracy was reduced with the lighter bullets, which is why Model 70 target rifles in .30-06 were available with 1-14” twist barrels where allowed by the rules BUT the greater wound damage done by the lighter bullets in fast twist barrels was (to be blunt) a benefit to combat units with good fire discipline and high marksmanship standards.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I think he is giving a general guideline but is stating it in more of a hard rule way. I will say the quickest kills I’ve had on mule deer were from a 25-06 shooting 117gr. Hornady Interlocks. Probably some combo of an easily shootable set up, good velocity and bullet construction. When placed right, it was lights out.

@TMac
@one-day
My own 25 is faster than the 25 ought six and about the same as the 257 Weatherby and your findings parallel my own. I have had the quickest kills with the high speed 25s using either the Barnes TTSX or the 117grain SST. I hane some 115grain nosler combined technology silver tip to try at ranges of 200 yards plus to see how they work as well. At least Th a 150 yards I think they will be to explosive when started at 3,370 fps. The high speed 25s seem to kill out of all proportion with well placed shots compared to the 6mms, 270 and 308. This is my opinion only and based on well over 100 head of game shot with it including deer,goats and pigs.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

bob, you cannot put the 6mms on the same page as 270 and up.
the smaller calibre almost needs a different bullet every 100 yds for best terminal performance.
270 and up you can use the same bullet from the muzzle out to point blank max.
bruce.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

bob, you cannot put the 6mms on the same page as 270 and up.
the smaller calibre almost needs a different bullet every 100 yds for best terminal performance.
270 and up you can use the same bullet from the muzzle out to point blank max.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
I 100% agree Bruce. The 6mms and 270 and up can't be fairly compared, but on fallow deer and pigs they are pretty much the same. It's when you get into bigger game like old boars and red deer the others come into their own. Even with good quality bullets like the SSTs and Barnes the 6mms are only a 200 yard game gun in my humble opinion and then in some cases even that is pushing it.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

bob, the number 200 yds is true.
however bullets like barnes can actually reduce its effectiveness on smaller game.
this is because an expanded barnes 6mm is still not that big in the front.
i would rate the 270 with 130 gn bullets as being way suoerior on fallow to anything the 6mm can offer.
in part because all shots are not perfect.
actually the 100 gn sierra s.p. proved quite good on fallow from my 25/06, but my speeds were probably lower than your 25.

 

[bruce moulds]

further to the above.
killing power of the 308 is better at 300 yds than the 243 at 200.
so why not use the 308?
if the answer is recoil, that leaves the 7mm/08.
120 to 140 gn bullets in the 7mm/08 recoil less than 150s and up in the 308.
120 gn 7mm bullets have the same s.d. as 150 gn 308, and come in different structures for terminal performance.
they shoot nearly as flat as real world 243 loads at realistic ranges and recoil less than 308.
what more could you want given the recoil vs killing power criteria.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Does the 2600 fps apply only to centerfire rifles shooting light bullets? I've shot many deer with slug guns at velocities well below 2600, never lost one and the vast majority were DRTs. Having said that, I believe the 2600 applies to one specific animal with specific calibers. Don't believe it's a one size fits all.

Feral pig DRTs.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

bob, the number 200 yds is true.
however bullets like barnes can actually reduce its effectiveness on smaller game.
this is because an expanded barnes 6mm is still not that big in the front.
i would rate the 270 with 130 gn bullets as being way suoerior on fallow to anything the 6mm can offer.
in part because all shots are not perfect.
actually the 100 gn sierra s.p. proved quite good on fallow from my 25/06, but my speeds were probably lower than your 25.

@bruce moulds
A thrown rock beats the 6mms.
Bob

 

[TMac]

@TMac
@one-day
My own 25 is faster than the 25 ought six and about the same as the 257 Weatherby and your findings parallel my own. I have had the quickest kills with the high speed 25s using either the Barnes TTSX or the 117grain SST. I hane some 115grain nosler combined technology silver tip to try at ranges of 200 yards plus to see how they work as well. At least Th a 150 yards I think they will be to explosive when started at 3,370 fps. The high speed 25s seem to kill out of all proportion with well placed shots compared to the 6mms, 270 and 308. This is my opinion only and based on well over 100 head of game shot with it including deer,goats and pigs.
Bob

Have used the 115 Nosler CT ST’s on several deer and one cow elk. They perform like a Nosler Ballistic Tip, which as I understand it they should. Same bullet with the coating? The cow elk was a 85 yard broadside shot through the ribs. Bullet did massive damage and surprisingly to me exited. Was an averaged sized one, 450-500 lbs. or so. Sample size of one...

It is a great deer bullet but I’d avoid shoulders as it will mess up some meat. I have used it on several deer and would not hesitate to do so again.