1980's Winchester Model 70 Safari Express - worth it?

[Hunter06FLKY]

I do not put much credence in the push-feed vs controlled round feed debate. I have yet to witness (in person) a failure on a PF that could not be attributed to the user, and in most cases a CRF would have had the same issue. That said, the CRF Win 70's hold their value better than the PF's.

Know your rifle and how to use it. Practice often and develop proper muscle memory. Work the bolt properly. Take the time to maintain your rifle in good condition. After a couple hundred rounds if you haven't had a failure...your rifle is reliable.

As for this particular rifle...no way of knowing if it's reliable without taking the leap. The positive side is you already have a 30-06 and that's perfect for doing a PG safari. If you were to add a 375H&H it would clear you for DG and provide a little more insurance for animals like eland, giraffe and zebra.

If you do get the 375 and it is reliable, it would be the only rifle I'd take to Africa. Travel light and enjoy the ride. Best of luck to you and let us know what you decide.

You are absolutely right, quality preparation trumps gear every time.

I have no concerns about the .30-06 - it has been my primary cartridge both back home and in Europe. However the idea of having a specific fun for Africa has a certain quality to it - and the justification of getting a new(to me) rifle

 

[Hunter06FLKY]

@Hunter06FLKY y......You live in a Country that makes amazing firearms. I expect the price is also pretty amazing. Here in the US, I think you could get a better rifle for $900 with a little careful shopping. ...........FWB

For sure - at this point I don't have to be in a rush and I need to remind myself of that. In this case I didn't want to let a good deal slip through my finger.

However, in this case, I think I may be better served to either wait for either a different option or a price reduction. Otherwise I can also go back to the reloading bench and just work on a special loading for my .30-06 for Africa So many options! haha

 

[Hunter06FLKY]

I've got one just like it, and wouldn't sell mine for $900.


(I would sell it however... now that I have amassed 4 - .375's!)




It killed a Gemsbok and Kudu at over 200m.

Those are great animals, btw! Gemsbok and Kudu are the two animals on the top of my list. I have been dreaming for years about hunting them!

 

[Hunter06FLKY]

Hallo und herzlich willkommen !

I would strongly suggest getting either a pre ‘64 New Haven made variant or a currently manufactured Portuguese variant. These are both control round feed. The Winchester Model 70 rifles manufactured between 1964-1992 were not to my liking at all. And their push feed design was only one of the reasons. The extractor was far too flimsy for properly extracting large magnum length cases (such as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum), especially in the hot dusty conditions of the Kalahari and the Zambezi Valley.

I strongly endorse the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum (for dangerous game) and .30-06 Springfield (for plains game) combination. I’ve been using both the calibers with great success on my African safaris, ever since my first safari to Kenya in 1974. As a matter of fact, this is my favorite combination to use for African game.
View attachment 541252
With .375 Holland & Holland Magnum (one of many successes with this caliber)
View attachment 541251
With .30-06 Springfield (one of many successes with this caliber)

Austria is a fabulous country and I absolutely love hunting the roe deer & red deer there. All the best on your upcoming safari. Hopefully, it will be the first of many.

P.S: If you do manage to get your hands on a pre ‘64 Winchester Model 70 in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, then please remember to:
1) Re-bed the stock and reinforce it with 2 cross-bolts (otherwise the stock WILL eventually split).
2) Have the feeding ramp smoothed out (otherwise it will often experience feeding issues with round nose soft point bullets).

Thank you for the great feedback and for the tips about the pre-64 Model 70s. I wans't aware of that.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I do not put much credence in the push-feed vs controlled round feed debate. I have yet to witness (in person) a failure on a PF that could not be attributed to the user, and in most cases a CRF would have had the same issue. That said, the CRF Win 70's hold their value better than the PF's.

Know your rifle and how to use it. Practice often and develop proper muscle memory. Work the bolt properly. Take the time to maintain your rifle in good condition. After a couple hundred rounds if you haven't had a failure...your rifle is reliable.

As for this particular rifle...no way of knowing if it's reliable without taking the leap. The positive side is you already have a 30-06 and that's perfect for doing a PG safari. If you were to add a 375H&H it would clear you for DG and provide a little more insurance for animals like eland, giraffe and zebra.

If you do get the 375 and it is reliable, it would be the only rifle I'd take to Africa. Travel light and enjoy the ride. Best of luck to you and let us know what you decide.

BeeMaa,
I’ll 100 % agree with the statement that not all push feed rifles are created equally. When I began big game hunting in the early 1970s (with my first African safari being to Kenya in 1974), push feed rifles were everywhere and only two CRF rifles were being produced at the time (the Czech BRNO ZKK series and the Serbian Interarms Mark X series).

The negative press associated with push feed rifles, actually stems from extraction issues with two very specific rifles: the Remington Model 700 and the post ‘64 Winchester Model 70. And yes, these rifles actually DID have extraction issues. I personally had a Remington Model 700 (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum) fail to extract a spent cartridge (a 300 Gr Remington round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid) after the extractor broke, while on safari in 1979. It's also been documented to occur on multiple occasions with the Remington Model 700 rifles chambered in .416 Remington Magnum. The extractor is simply too small for cases as large as the .375. The small extractor of the Remington Model 700 and big cases such as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, are NOT a good combination. Especially in hot weather conditions. No less than three of my white hunters also reported extraction failures with push feed Winchester Model 70 rifles (mostly in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, but also .458 Winchester Magnum) in dusty conditions. Another push feed rifle which was ill reputed for being plagued with extraction issues, was the Mauser Model 66.

One of my white hunters (Mr. Con Van Wyk) was actually badly mauled by a wounded lion in 1988 when he had decided to spoor it with is post '64 Winchester Model 70 in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum (loaded with 300Gr Winchester Silver Tip soft nosed cartridges). The first 2 shots did him no good. One of those beastly Silver Tip bullets had actually disintegrated upon striking one of the lion's front teeth. When he attempted to cycle the bolt in order to give the cat a 3rd shot, the extractor failed and the lion began to maul him. Fortunately the lion's jaw had been broken by Mr. Wyk's client's bullet, which prevented the creature from being able to seriously wound Mr. Wyk. One of his trackers was able to save him by shooting the lion in the back of the head with another rifle (a .300 Holland & Holland pre '64 Winchester Model 70).

Now, let’s talk about another push feed rifle action with a reputation for immense reliability: The old British B.S.A Majestic. It had a rather small looking extractor on one side of the bolt face, operated by a coil spring. The B.S.A Majestic bolt had a good sized extractor, rimming nearly a third of the bolt face circumference … spring loaded but able to move outwards and over the cartridge head when pushed against it in the chamber. The ejector was a plunger type in the bolt face. Despite being a push feed, these rifles extracted EXTREMELY reliably under all circumstances. Good old British engineering, perhaps. The B.S.A Majestic (in .458 Winchester Magnum) was the backup rifle of choice of my life’s first white hunter (Joe Cheffings) and he had an immense amount of confidence in the reliability of the rifle. It was also the backup rifle of choice of Lionell Palmer. Unfortunately, B.S.A manufactured these rifles with beastly muzzle brakes and only in five calibers (.243 Winchester, .270 Winchester, .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield and .458 Winchester Magnum).

Modern push feed rifles such as the German Blaser R-8 or the Danish Schultz & Larsen Ambassador are also extremely reliable.

So, yes. It depends on the TYPE of push feed action being used, rather than whether or not the action is a push feed. Making blanket statements that all push feed actions are unreliable, is definitely not accurate.

 

[BeeMaa]

BeeMaa,
I’ll 100 % agree with the statement that not all push feed rifles are created equally. When I began big game hunting in the early 1970s (with my first African safari being to Kenya in 1974), push feed rifles were everywhere and only two CRF rifles were being produced at the time (the Czech BRNO ZKK series and the Serbian Interarms Mark X series).

The negative press associated with push feed rifles, actually stems from extraction issues with two very specific rifles: the Remington Model 700 and the post ‘64 Winchester Model 70. And yes, these rifles actually DID have extraction issues. I personally had a Remington Model 700 (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum) fail to extract a spent cartridge (a 300 Gr Remington round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid) after the extractor broke, while on safari in 1979. It's also been documented to occur on multiple occasions with the Remington Model 700 rifles chambered in .416 Remington Magnum. The extractor is simply too small for cases as large as the .375. The small extractor of the Remington Model 700 and big cases such as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, are NOT a good combination. Especially in hot weather conditions. No less than three of my white hunters also reported extraction failures with push feed Winchester Model 70 rifles (mostly in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, but also .458 Winchester Magnum) in dusty conditions. Another push feed rifle which was ill reputed for being plagued with extraction issues, was the Mauser Model 66.

One of my white hunters (Mr. Con Van Wyk) was actually badly mauled by a wounded lion in 1988 when he had decided to spoor it with is post '64 Winchester Model 70 in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum (loaded with 300Gr Winchester Silver Tip soft nosed cartridges). The first 2 shots did him no good. One of those beastly Silver Tip bullets had actually disintegrated upon striking one of the lion's front teeth. When he attempted to cycle the bolt in order to give the cat a 3rd shot, the extractor failed and the lion began to maul him. Fortunately the lion's jaw had been broken by Mr. Wyk's client's bullet, which prevented the creature from being able to seriously wound Mr. Wyk. One of his trackers was able to save him by shooting the lion in the back of the head with another rifle (a .300 Holland & Holland pre '64 Winchester Model 70).

Now, let’s talk about another push feed rifle action with a reputation for immense reliability: The old British B.S.A Majestic. It had a rather small looking extractor on one side of the bolt face, operated by a coil spring. The B.S.A Majestic bolt had a good sized extractor, rimming nearly a third of the bolt face circumference … spring loaded but able to move outwards and over the cartridge head when pushed against it in the chamber. The ejector was a plunger type in the bolt face. Despite being a push feed, these rifles extracted EXTREMELY reliably under all circumstances. Good old British engineering, perhaps. The B.S.A Majestic (in .458 Winchester Magnum) was the backup rifle of choice of my life’s first white hunter (Joe Cheffings) and he had an immense amount of confidence in the reliability of the rifle. It was also the backup rifle of choice of Lionell Palmer. Unfortunately, B.S.A manufactured these rifles with beastly muzzle brakes and only in five calibers (.243 Winchester, .270 Winchester, .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield and .458 Winchester Magnum).

Modern push feed rifles such as the German Blaser R-8 or the Danish Schultz & Larsen Ambassador are also extremely reliable.

So, yes. It depends on the TYPE of push feed action being used, rather than whether or not the action is a push feed. Making blanket statements that all push feed actions are unreliable, is definitely not accurate.

The issues I’ve seen with push feed extraction failures can be tied directly to poor maintenance of the rifle. Dirty chambers, grit and grime in the action and worn parts. A couple were R700’s, but I don’t remember the others. Most rifles were on the line of being abused, certainly by my standards.

The other issues are also user related like short stroking the action or not fully lifting the bolt.

CRF will not save the day when it comes to these problems.

To get back on topic with the OP…having a 375H&H in Africa is akin to having a 30-06 in the US or 7x57 in EU. They just go together. I will also say that if you get one, you will find more uses for it than you thought of before. Not to mention opening doors to hunt some of the worlds most dangerous wildlife. If you don’t get this one, find another to buy. Best of luck with it.

 

[WAB]

I do not put much credence in the push-feed vs controlled round feed debate. I have yet to witness (in person) a failure on a PF that could not be attributed to the user, and in most cases a CRF would have had the same issue. That said, the CRF Win 70's hold their value better than the PF's.

Know your rifle and how to use it. Practice often and develop proper muscle memory. Work the bolt properly. Take the time to maintain your rifle in good condition. After a couple hundred rounds if you haven't had a failure...your rifle is reliable.

As for this particular rifle...no way of knowing if it's reliable without taking the leap. The positive side is you already have a 30-06 and that's perfect for doing a PG safari. If you were to add a 375H&H it would clear you for DG and provide a little more insurance for animals like eland, giraffe and zebra.

If you do get the 375 and it is reliable, it would be the only rifle I'd take to Africa. Travel light and enjoy the ride. Best of luck to you and let us know what you decide.

A good friend of mine got taken down by a griz packing a caribou out. The two of them rolled off the trail and down the side of the hill. His buddy had the presence of mind to bail off the trail so that he was shooting up into the bear and away from my friend which caused the bear to react. As the bears weight shifted, my friend was able to roll enough from under its weight to get the barrel of his rifle into it, and empty his magazine, killing the bear. The rifle (CRF) was upside down when he did this. I don’t know for sure, but I’m guessing a push feed would have been a problem.

Post action, he was uninjured as the bear had been ripping on his pack full of meat. However, he had to sit for an hour before he could even stand up.

A PH buddy of mine ended up with a buffalo horn hooked in his ammo belt and got tossed around like a rag doll. Who knows what orientation the rifle ended up in.

Both of these men had the wherewithal to hang onto their rifles.

If you read my trip report from Zim in 2017 you will see that my buddy was in a tight spot with a cow ele after she put his PH out of commission in an unprovoked charge.

For DG country I’ll stick with CRF.

 

[Fixfire]

No to belabor the comparison - many threads on CRF versus PF. In my simple mind it comes down to this:

Some (most) claim CRF is best.
Some (R700 guys) claim PF is just as good.
Zero claim PF is better.
‘nough said.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

No to belabor the comparison - many threads on CRF versus PF. In my simple mind it comes down to this:

Some (most) claim CRF is best.
Some (R700 guys) claim PF is just as good.
Zero claim PF is better.
‘nough said.

Fixfire,
There technically IS one advantage to the push feed design. Or rather, there was.

Traditionally speaking, Mauser 98 action rifles must have their cartridges fed into the chamber via the magazine only. Trying to feed a cartridge directly into the chamber would often cause the extractor to break. In Push feed rifles however, a round may directly be fed into the chamber itself. Of course, it’s highly interpretive how important this feature is to the operator.

At any rate, during the 1970s American gunsmith Fred Wells discovered that if you bevel the extractor on a Mauser 98 action rifle… then you can safely feed a cartridge directly into the chamber itself (by snapping the extractor over the rim of the cartridge) without any risk of breaking the extractor. But this must only be done by a competent gunsmith.

Today, this is a common practice with most modern control round feed rifles (such as the new Portuguese Winchester Model 70 or the Heym Martini Express).

 

[Hunter06FLKY]

A good friend of mine got taken down by a griz packing a caribou out. The two of them rolled off the trail and down the side of the hill. His buddy had the presence of mind to bail off the trail so that he was shooting up into the bear and away from my friend which caused the bear to react. As the bears weight shifted, my friend was able to roll enough from under its weight to get the barrel of his rifle into it, and empty his magazine, killing the bear. The rifle (CRF) was upside down when he did this. I don’t know for sure, but I’m guessing a push feed would have been a problem.

Post action, he was uninjured as the bear had been ripping on his pack full of meat. However, he had to sit for an hour before he could even stand up.

A PH buddy of mine ended up with a buffalo horn hooked in his ammo belt and got tossed around like a rag doll. Who knows what orientation the rifle ended up in.

Both of these men had the wherewithal to hang onto their rifles.

If you read my trip report from Zim in 2017 you will see that my buddy was in a tight spot with a cow ele after she put his PH out of commission in an unprovoked charge.

For DG country I’ll stick with CRF.

Wow... talk about some extraordinary situations! Glad it worked out well for the people involved. Both stories make for good arguments for CRF.

 

[FlowHamed18]

As far as I know Voere offers a Take Down Version in .375 H&H for 2.600,-€ or something like that...

And as all Voere rifles it is a CRF...

Not the cheapest option, but definitely a good one

 

[WAB]

Wow... talk about some extraordinary situations! Glad it worked out well for the people involved. Both stories make for good arguments for CRF.

Yep. Unfortunately my friend who survived the griz died in a wing over stall when he encountered unannounced interference on the Kustatan strip. He was the real deal. We all miss him.

 

[Nevada Mike]

While I prefer SRF rifles for all the above reasons, I do own a couple of PF rifles that I have used with great satisfaction while hunting.

The Win Model 70 PF rifle is one of the best rifles made in that configuration. They are smooth feeding and they will work upside down. If my .375 was a PF model I would not hesitate to use it in Africa, but my 375 is a CRF Model 70 Safari Special.

 

[Hunter06FLKY]

Yep. Unfortunately my friend who survived the griz died in a wing over stall when he encountered unannounced interference on the Kustatan strip. He was the real deal. We all miss him.

Oh wow... I am very sorry to hear that. It sounds like the man lived quite an interesting life.

 

[BeeMaa]

@WAB - I have great respect for you and your opinions. The experiences that people have lead to decisions that we make, even if those experiences were by friends. I just wanted to illustrate that not all actions are not created equally and that some PF's have come a long way since their origins in the 1940's. I mean no disrespect to you, your friend who survived the griz attack or anyone else for that matter. Call this just a test of what is possible.

At the risk of completely derailing this thread, I offer two links to videos I made of me cycling my Blaser R8 375H&H with A-Zoom Snap Caps.

First time I ran the action as I normally would...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/33rzaTusu46doonJ9

Then I thought I should try it slower. This is as slow as I could go...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pv138PKyaXyDNpF29

After doing this test I realized that the snap caps are lighter than loaded ammo, possibly skewing the results in my favor. So I tried it again in my living room with live PPU 300 grain SPRN. Worked just fine again, but I didn't feel the need to film it.

 

[WAB]

@WAB - I have great respect for you and your opinions. The experiences that people have lead to decisions that we make, even if those experiences were by friends. I just wanted to illustrate that not all actions are not created equally and that some PF's have come a long way since their origins in the 1940's. I mean no disrespect to you, your friend who survived the griz attack or anyone else for that matter. Call this just a test of what is possible.

At the risk of completely derailing this thread, I offer two links to videos I made of me cycling my Blaser R8 375H&H with A-Zoom Snap Caps.

First time I ran the action as I normally would...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/33rzaTusu46doonJ9

Then I thought I should try it slower. This is as slow as I could go...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pv138PKyaXyDNpF29

After doing this test I realized that the snap caps are lighter than loaded ammo, possibly skewing the results in my favor. So I tried it again in my living room with live PPU 300 grain SPRN. Worked just fine again, but I didn't feel the need to film it.

Ah there you go again, working on my temptation to enter the world of Blaser! I would carry one without hesitation. A truly fine firearm and utterly reliable.

I came dangerously close to leaving SCI with a K95!

Oh, and don’t worry about differing opinions. I truly value yours.

 

[Dhutson]

Get the Winchester. Cant go wrong.