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I don't think there's one single solution for all of Africa and think it's more a case of a variety or combination of solutions but I'm not a zoologist to don't know any more about the solutions than anyone else - But I do know Africa and Africans so will say, it ain't gonna be easy....... but...

Who said I don't have thoughts on the problems facing the wild lions? - The reason I've hardly mentioned them is because it's an entirely different problem with entirely different solutions (if there are solutions) but certainly nothing to do with the subject in hand.......... Which...

As I said before, it's the wilding period rather than the land size that is most important..... but the REAL answer is to ban ALL captive lion breeding throughout the continent so that only wild lions can be hunted. If captive bred lions don't exist, they can't be hunted. - Simple! I'll...

Dave, As I see it, this is a VERY BIG issue and one that will (not could but will) have a massive adverse, long term effect on ALL hunting throughout Africa........ but you've just confirmed what I said that it was a surprise proposal from the floor and it overturned the original proposal of...

I'm not even a member now but as I understand it, the proposal was sprung on them during the meeting so no-one had any forewarning but to me, such a proposal and vote (esp with such a low number in attendance) should have been referred to a postal vote but either way, if my uncle had tits, she'd...

Assuming the quoted figures are correct then 7.3% of the membership were present & the proposal passed by just 4.53% of the membership and that to me cannot possibly be construed as a fair & democratic vote & if the rules of the Association allow it, then both the rules & the vote are extremely...

I agree that the system needs changing but don't see how a a surprise proposal & vote by less than 10% of the membership is anything like democratic.

Brickburn I don't know if it was a legal vote or not but do reckon it was deliberately engineered by a small number with a private agenda & would hope the majority have the common sense to call another meeting (emergency if necessary) & overturn it with another proposal & vote........ &...

It was a quote from a member, hence the speech marks at the beginning & end of the quote. These " quote " are speech marks. I can only assume he chose to use such language because he felt strongly about the situation. That said, it is one of the most versatile words in the English language...

We're DAYS past the few hours you promised so to make it easy for you, I contacted a few members to find out more. One reply was: "The s&!t was voted in 68 against 42. Only 110 members voted less than 10% and there were no forward notification that there will be a vote, the f@#king thing was...

Marius I said earlier that wild lions face a number of threats and not least amongst them is the indigenous peoples of Africa killing them illegally by any and all means possible and at every opportunity and that, that is a very different matter with totally different solutions (if there are...

I agree the twain will never meet........ and that's the difference between true hunting and simply shooting to equip a trophy room for the owners self aggrandisment and when the day comes when true hunting is finished as it surely one day will, it'll be a very sad day and I hope I won't be...

Mike It doesn't play any part in conservation whatsoever because wild lions are on a set quota and once that quota is filled, then that's it for the season. The two things are not connected in any way. The only thing it does do is allow a trophy room that doesn't have a lion to have one...

Spike There's one very major difference and it's nothing to do with fences. (I'm talking Africa here BTW) The other game such as antelope etc are released or born in the area and then spend the rest of their lives learning that area. They are self sustaining (for the most part) and learn...

No answers then? ROTFLMAO!

Originally Posted by shakari Retired from the Professional Hunting field in Africa.... Originally Posted byKMG "This is the best thing that appears whenever you post anything....." There you go with the Ad Hominem again...... you can't defeat the argument so you attack the man. It...

My comment had nothing to do with CIC & I made it quite clear that I was referring to a possible voluntary moratorium on captive lion shooting & whether you guys would abide by such a vote should it ever happen. I don't know enough about the CIC issue to comment but do reckon he's dead right...

At my comment or at the very idea of an absolute or total moratorium on what brings you guys a fair bit of income? LOL It's actually not an unreasonable question...........

Excellently put...... Ronnie has it dead right. I'd bet a pound to a pinch of the smelly brown stuff that if PHASA has the courage to hold a postal ballot on the issue, they would get a very different result & the voluntary wilding period would change/lengthen dramatically......... I hope...

Kind of you to say so! ;)

Nope. I didn't attack her personally. I said I felt she hadn't done her job properly and that she'd fallen in my estimation because she had allowed the thing to be hijacked by a minority and that such an important matter deserved a postal ballot so that all members had the opportunity to vote. -...

Ad Hominem again and then wriggling out of the argument because you can't provide the answers and/or defend the indefensible. Which I think proves my point(s) rather well.

Ad Hominem is as I explained previously, a Latin expression that means 'attack the man when you can't win the argument' & your post is a classic example of it. If you're done with this thread, does that mean you're unwilling or unable to give me the info on the number members present when the...

So as usual, you & the gang are unable to defend the indefensible & again resort to Ad Hominem......... I expected nothing more from you. Voicing my opinion isn't a privilege, it's a right & in fact, a right stipulated in most free world constitutions....... including I believe, your own. :)...

Seems like my last post got lost but in short: You might not like my opinion but I have every right to express it whether you like it or not & that right includes the right to criticise both Ms Kitshoff & PHASA for allowing that vote & if you don't like my opinion, I suggest you do the other...

PHASA has 10 EXCO members and moaning1500 members give or take, 20% of this is around 300 add a couple proxy votes and the constitution if memory serves well allows for a legal vote... Blaming Adri is piss poor form! Especially if you consider that the same guys are found at AGM, as well as...

The site seems to be having problems today - or at least, it does from here....... I'm having trouble accessing the site AND the posts I see differ from my post notifications but going by the latter, the 6 month wilding period was proposed at least as far back as when the spineless Van Schalkwyk...

Now all they need to do is hold a proper, democratic postal vote on the wilding period. LOL Regarding the vote at the AGM: How can a vote that takes place with something in the region of only 20% of the membership present be construed as anything like democratic? - (IMO) It was nothing short...

Jaco Several different people think otherwise & have gone into detailed discussion about the implications with me about it so maybe they all have the wrong idea or maybe the idea got kicked into touch as it quite rightly should have been. Either way, I hope you're right because it'll be a...

Jaco Time will tell if it happens but I do know it's been proposed, do know it's received a warm welcome from some parts of PHASA and do know it's an absolutely piss poor idea.

Jaco Seems I'm more in touch with PHASA than you are because I've been having calls & emails for weeks from various members about the regulatory status and I can assure you there is a very strong desire from some in the association to take on that regulatory status. I appreciate proxy...

Jaco & Pieter I'll criticise anyone I like bwanas. She cocked up on allowing that vote to happen instead of having a postal vote - and I have no doubt, that mistake will cause trouble amongst the membership - And what's more, she'll be cocking up again if she takes up this bloody stupid...

Big5 It's amazing how things have changed or perhaps deteriorated over the last 25 or 30 years huh? - I hardly recognise the industry as the same one I entered all those years ago. - Hard to believe there was a time when one could shoot a rhino for biltong......... but that said, I guess...

Whilst I think a much longer wilding period (6 months or so) would be a BIG step forward, I don't think it'll ever happen simply because of the economics of what the lions would eat during that time and as the only reason most people book these shoots is because they're cheaper, the maths just...

Dave Hope you had a good hunt? 2) I agree the mantra of hunting conservation is if it pays it stays but as far as I'm concerned & have previously explained, it's not hunting, it's killing and I believe it causes immense damage to real hunting. You know as well as I do that these shoots can...

It's a subtle difference but FWIW, I'm expressing a personal opinion/my own beliefs and not telling you or anyone else what you should or shouldn't do........ I don't approve of the practice and I flatly refuse to be involved in it. I'd like to see it banned by law AND I'll be happy to debate my...

Yeah you were mate...... you might not have meant to but that's exactly how it reads from this end. Africa has plenty of things it can export if the continent, let alone individual countries are run anything close to properly and a few tons of bone etc are neither here nor there in the...

You might unfortunately be right there but any lessening of poaching pressure has to be a good thing........

Is that the same export product that some Govts are suggesting is either illegal or in some cases, should be be illegal and will be if they have their way. - Like I said, let the eastern countries farm the lions for themselves if they like. As I've repeatedly said, I'm not against farming...

Pieter You're trying to put words in my mouth.... I didn't say that and I don't believe it...... but I don't have a problem with them breeding their own lions and rhinos for their own consumption if it means they'll leave the ones in Africa alone.

How does it relieve pressure on the wild population then? Lions are a quota animal and only a stipulated number may be shot and after that number has been reached then that's it for the year........... therefore, captive bred lions do bugger all for the wild lion population. What it does...

I try not to watch You Tube or even hunting vids if I can help it because I don't think hunting translates to the screen & that's made worse for me by all the high fiving & cheerleading squeals one so often sees. - There are a few good ones but not many. (IMO) As I said, I don't have a...

Pieter I don't think one thing has anything to do with the other. The answer to poaching is to stop or be stopped - it's not to provide an alternative source.......... If the east wants cat bones, let 'em farm cats like people farm cattle.... After all, they breed quickly & easily which is...

I don't have the answer to that I'm afraid but do think it might (probably is) be part of the solution...... but I reckon they need to do considerably more than just open trade on rhino horn and/or ivory for that matter. Even if they do open trade, I don't think it'll stop the poaching...

I might disapprove of the practice less if there was a sensible & enforceable wilding period such as 6 months but can also understand why that isn't possible and I fail to see any logic at all in the arguments these shoots contribute to conservation in any way simply because one thing has...

If no drugs are used then no problem with having a blood test done then? But that still doesn't alter the fact that such a short wilding period doesn't allow the animal to become self sufficient or learn thing like the terrain, escape routes, safe areas or watering points etc. The animal...

That's a good point but the idea is they learn to survive like a wild lion and beinbg totally self sufficient....... of course, they would in that environment sometimes eat carrion but they would also sometimes eat more expensive species such as kudu, nyala, sable and buffalo etc........ I...

Brickburn I guess the others could probably tell you more but in my day, they were most commonly using a cocktail of immobilon and something else I've forgotten the name of I'm afraid........ I guess I'm getting old! LOL FWIW, cats are ultra sensitive to many/most drugs and one has to be...

Marius I haven't offered any advice at all........ what I have offered is opinion of the practice and that's something completely different. Let's be honest, the skill of a cat hunt is getting the animal to be in the right place at the right time to shoot it and with a captive bred lion...

Thanks Marius. you've just proved my point about Ad Hominem: Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Which means 'attack the man when you can't win the argument' :)