When the good stuff doesn't work!!!

[BryceM]

Love TSX and TTSX. The guys that make them are just “down the road”. CEB too. Up the road a bit.

I really like A-frames. Anyone know where I can buy some??????

 

[Creigh]

I have always liked me some lead up front in a bullet! Blessed to have a mate who makes and owns Spoor Bullet Company bullets with a well constructed solid shank and bonded lead! Accurate and deadly!

I follow this guy on Insta. Some of the load development stuff he highlights is top notch. I wanted to go that way myself but his CnC machine needed maintenance right then and we where in a tight timeline. We ended up going with Oryx, a very similar head.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

Greetings fellow Hunters,

Due to witnessing erratic performance from hollow pointed bullets, in both rifles and handguns alike, I had abandoned hollow point designs, quite a long time ago.

I’ve settled peacefully on old fashioned lead core, round nose and flat nose designs, with plenty of lead showing at the tip, for most of my shooting, in both rifle and handgun alike.

That said, many caliber offerings from Swift A-Frame are spitzer and semi-spitzer.
Nonetheless, due to its excellent track history by now, that is the bullet I always recommend to people wanting to hunt buffalo, especially if they plan to use a .375 caliber rifle.

My understanding is that there are other bonded lead core brands available, such as Bear Claw and more that, also enjoy excellent history on many large game animal species.

For those who like to use hollow pointed bullets, I say that’s what they should use.
But for myself, no thanks.

Kind Regards,
Velo Dog.

Simplicity is often the ultimate in sophistication! Congratulations on your choice, friend; it can't go wrong! I have NEVER, I repeat, NEVER seen an A-frame fail to open.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Simplicity is often the ultimate in sophistication! Congratulations on your choice, friend; it can't go wrong! I have NEVER, I repeat, NEVER seen an A-frame fail to open.

These days I NEVER see A-Frames ... anywhere.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

Do you have a large caliber rifle and want an extremely reliable bullet that opens wide and retains 95% of its weight?

416 Rigby Woodleigh Weldcore 450 Grain Bonded Round Nose

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Another reason copper bullets may have a tendency to go askew after impact, especially at obtuse angles, is they are per gr weight much longer than similar weight lead core bullets. After impact the longer bullet's arse can overrun its head, especially if the point doesn't peel away/back quickly. Then the bullet "jacknifes" and is steered in another direction. Perhaps there are two advantages to shooting lighter copper bullets: 1) faster velocity = more assurance they will open up and 2) more likely to stay on track after impact. My theory anyway.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

Another reason copper bullets may have a tendency to go askew after impact, especially at obtuse angles, is they are per gr weight much longer than similar weight lead core bullets. After impact the longer bullet's arse can overrun its head, especially if the point doesn't peel away/back quickly. Then the bullet "jacknifes" and is steered in another direction. Perhaps there are two advantages to shooting lighter copper bullets: 1) faster velocity = more assurance they will open up and 2) more likely to stay on track after impact. My theory anyway.

I agree 100% with your consideration!!

 

[mauser98]

To add to the conversation, I've noticed and seen spitzer and boat tail shaped bullets seem to deflect more so upon bone contact than flat based, not to say that it doesn't happen with flat base bullets. Just an observation from hunting and guiding and always looking for the bullet and following the wound channel.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

To add to the conversation, I've noticed and seen spitzer and boat tail shaped bullets seem to deflect more so upon bone contact than flat based, not to say that it doesn't happen with flat base bullets. Just an observation from hunting and guiding and always looking for the bullet and following the wound channel.

Interesting. Again, a 180 gr boat tail 308 cal bullet will by necessity be longer than a 180 gr flat base bullet. The different center of gravity may have something to do with the boat tail's propensity to wander off track after impact.

 

[skydiver386]

Interesting. Again, a 180 gr boat tail 308 cal bullet will by necessity be longer than a 180 gr flat base bullet. The different center of gravity may have something to do with the boat tail's propensity to wander off track after impact.

Exactly.

I've said on several threads, rifling twist rate matters, a lot.

The longer any project is, the faster it has to be spun to keep it gyroscopically stable. Basic physics.

Most of us from the older generation are familiar with a childs top, a spinning toy that balanced itself on its point when it was spinning fast, but when as it's spin rate slowed, it became unstable and fell over.

In some ways, bullets work the same way. A bullet that is short doesn't need to be spun all that fast to stay stable, but a long slender bullet has to be spun fast for it to retain its stability.

This isn't just important for accuracy as the bullet flies through the air, it's even more important when it hits flesh. It has to be gyroscopically stable in order to penetrate in a straight line, and to expand properly.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I know this post will stir up controversy. Many will disbelieve what I'm about to say, others will say my ammunition is slow and things like that, because I know you Americans love these bullets, but... I'm going to share here a few years of experience using monolithic bullets for big game hunting!

In almost 10 years of guiding hunting safaris in African countries, examining, collecting, and recording everything I can about hunting bullets and their actual performance against resilient African wildlife, I've discovered that monolithic expanding bullets, even the highest quality ones, when fired at the sides of animals at tight angles (back to front or front to back), can fail! What happens is that the tip deforms due to the lateral entry angle, and then the small opening responsible for initiating expansion closes! The bullet doesn't open and penetrate like a solid bullet. However, it doesn't behave like a solid bullet, often having an irregular trajectory within the animal. I've lost animals this way and had to finance others (mainly buffalo) injured by clients for exactly this reason! So, be careful with these shots at tight angles when using monolithic bullets without plastic tips! Important note: I love the Barnes TSX and especially the TTSX designs for buffalo. For every two or three hundred that work perfectly, I've had one that didn't. That's why I continue to use and recommend them.

View attachment 704780

@Crishuntbrasil
No matter how good any object is sooner or later you are going to have a failure, it the law of averages..
Bob

 

[Sideshow]

Exactly.

I've said on several threads, rifling twist rate matters, a lot.

The longer any project is, the faster it has to be spun to keep it gyroscopically stable. Basic physics.

Most of us from the older generation are familiar with a childs top, a spinning toy that balanced itself on its point when it was spinning fast, but when as it's spin rate slowed, it became unstable and fell over.
View attachment 705533
In some ways, bullets work the same way. A bullet that is short doesn't need to be spun all that fast to stay stable, but a long slender bullet has to be spun fast for it to retain its stability.

This isn't just important for accuracy as the bullet flies through the air, it's even more important when it hits flesh. It has to be gyroscopically stable in order to penetrate in a straight line, and to expand properly.

Yes very true but as has been found some bulllets take time to stabilise when they leave the barrel. That’s why some fail to expanded and pass through at close range and yet preform as the should further out. The old bullet goes sleep. Back to twist rate matches the bullet. Bullet company’s must have a hell of a time trying to match these up.

 

[grand veneur]

@Crishuntbrasil
No matter how good any object is sooner or later you are going to have a failure, it the law of averages..
Bob

Unfortunately not everyone believes that.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I would only add that the TSX is a mass market product that's affordable, available to handload and shoot regularly, are accurate, and is probably used more than any other big game bullet on earth. If you look at it from that perspective, if barnes tsx are used 10 times more than any other bullet, there are going to be more failures strictly from a statistical standpoint.

There is no doubt that Swift, North Fork, Cutting Edge and many more are really good, but they all cost a lot more, and are not always available.

@uplander01
Barnes may be affordable where you live but in Australia they are far from affordable.
Just an example a box of 100gn 25 cal TTSX will set you back $120 for a box of 50 and 200gn 35 cal Barnes will set you back over $150 a box.

Fortunately we have a bullet similar but better than Barnes called the Atomic 29 made by Cameron right here in Australia. These wonderful projectiles are both very accurate and deadly and only cost a fraction of the cost of Barnes.
Bob

 

[analog_peninsula]

Buying local products is usually the smart call assuming quality is up to snuff. Just because something is shipped in from far away doesn’t make it better.

 

[skydiver386]

Yes very true but as has been found some bulllets take time to stabilise when they leave the barrel. That’s why some fail to expanded and pass through at close range and yet preform as the should further out. The old bullet goes sleep. Back to twist rate matches the bullet. Bullet company’s must have a hell of a time trying to match these up.

Calculating bullet twist and stability are a simple math formula.

The real problem is that most hunters don't know what the twist rate is in their barrel, and don't think it's important. They use a bullet not suitable for their rifling twist rate, and when the bullets don't perform well, they blame the bullet.

The most common formula for calculating rifling twist rate for copper bullets is the Greenhill formula: T = (C * D^2) / L, where:

• T: is the twist rate (in inches per one full rotation of the bullet).
  
  
• C: is a constant, often 150 for bullets traveling slower than 2,800 fps and 180 for faster velocities.
  
  
• D: is the bullet diameter (in inches).
  
  
• L: is the bullet length (in inches).

Twist Rate Stability Calculator

Our newly updated Twist Rate Stability Calculator not only tells you what your SG is, but it also lets you know if you are reaching your optimized BC.

bergerbullets.com

Berger Bullets has an online calculator that uses a plug and play calculator that will give the optimal twist rate for any given bullet at most reasonable velocities.

Copper bullets like the Barnes X are not as heavy for their length and the newer Miller formula is more suited to calculating proper twist rates for those types of Brass, Bronze or Copper bullets.

Twist Rate Calculator

Use the twist rate calculator to estimate the bullet stability factor and the right twist rate for the bullet.

www.omnicalculator.com

Since going to faster twist rates for the newer projectiles, the overwhelming majority of their perceived problems have gone away.

 

[Beck]

Exactly why I dont use them or recommend them......especially in larger slower calibers and definately not on dg......my 2c anyway...

What bullets do you recommend on DG?

 

[Fordy]

Gday
Put wax in your Barnes hp & most of your troubles will go away

Do that you’ve got your hydraulic already going not the need to produce it


Cheers

 

[Twraska]

Gday
Put wax in your Barnes hp & most of your troubles will go away

Do that you’ve got your hydraulic already going not the need to produce it


Cheers

Do you think the wax will stay in when the bullet is spinning over 300k rpm?

 

[skydiver386]

The plastic tip is there to initiate expansion.

Remington brought out their "Bronze Point" bullets in the 1930's that used a separate tip to initiate expansion. They conducted extensive testing before that bullet was loaded in their factory ammo and released to the market.

It amazes me that 90 years later people think it's not needed and seperate tips are just a passing fad.