Need for Solids?

Rolly

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About two weeks ago I returned from South Africa and a management bull and cow buffalo hunt. I got both critters with no drama at about 40-50 yards using a 375 H&H and 300 grain Federal premium ammo in a rented rifle.
After my hunt I was talking guns and bullets with the retired PH who actually owned the land upon which I had been hunting.
His opinion was that since the advent of the really good controlled expansion, mono copper bullets like the Barnes brand that he felt there really was no longer any real need for solids in the 375 caliber rifles and on up.
What’s your opinion?
 
A controversial discussion about this topic is unnecessary nowadays. The premium SP bullets used for buffalo shooting make the FMJ bullets or solids unnecessary, in all cases for a client. There remains a small field of application for solids when very marginal cartridges are used for buffalo hunting, but that is a different topic.
 
This gets discussed every couple weeks. Here’s a recent thread. My answer is I think only premium softs are necessary, but if PH requests I load the magazine with solids I won’t argue. A soft does more damage on a good shot. A solid gets more penetration on a bad shot. I can see both arguments, but I want a premium soft first.
 
Agreed with the others. A 300 gr TSX or Northfork cupped point solid (CPS) is really all you need as a client. Most PHs would probably recommend the TSX over the CPS but I have had some great results so far on DG and large bodied PG with the CPS. I plan on doing more work with it but I absolutely can recommend the TSX. This .416 400 gr CPS was recovered after traversing a large eland from tail to shoulder...over 6 feet.

IMG_6950.JPG
 
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You need solids for elephant and rhino. Hippo on land i just don't know.

For Buffalo you do not need solids unless hunting with Hornady ammo. If you are using TSX, A-Frames, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, or any similar bullet of good quality and quality control. In other words a good quality mono metal or bonded bullet is all you need. This does not include Hornady GMX nor their DGX Bonded.... I've had both blow up and fragment and fail to penetrate.
 
Very logical question to ask. Let me explain. When I first began hunting in Africa in 1974… the standard practice was to load a soft point for the first shot and solids for the follow up shot. In a magazine rifle, it was soft point in the chamber and solids in the magazine. In a double rifle, it was soft point in the first barrel & solid in the second barrel.

The logic was that (as a client hunter) your first shot would invariably be made from a perfectly broadside position (which your white hunter would get you to) and from this angle… the soft points of those days (for example: the RWS Kegelspitze Cone Point) could be reliably expected to penetrate into the heart-lung region behind the shoulder (provided that you avoided the heavy shoulder bone/humerus/scapula). After the first shot, the Cape buffalo would be either departing (i.e offering only quartering away or going away shots) or (relatively less commonly) charging (i.e offering only frontal shots). At these angles, the soft points of those days seldom could be reliably expected to penetrate deep enough into the vital organs. Hence, we had to rely exclusively upon the solid for follow up shots.

My initial set up (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum magazine rifles) was one RWS 300Gr Kegelspitze Cone Point followed by RWS 300Gr nickel jacketed round nosed FMJ solids (and later, Remington 300Gr Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids starting from 1982) in the rest of the magazine.
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In this double barreled .458 Winchester Magnum Belgium made boxlock ejector, it was a (hand loaded) Hornady 500Gr soft point in the left barrel for the first shot and a (hand loaded) Hornady 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid in the right barrel for the follow up shot.
IMG_1789.jpeg

Aside from the fact that soft points generated larger wound cavities in the vital organs of Cape buffalo on body shots to the heart-lung region (which accelerated blood loss and led to the game hemorrhaging faster from blood loss), they possessed one more advantage. They did not over penetrate. You see, the vast majority of African Cape buffalo are hunted in herds. And using solid bullets always runs the risk of accidentally wounding another animal after your bullet passes completely through your intended target animal. During my first Safari to Kenya in 1974, I had (in fact) accidentally wounded a Cape buffalo cow (which I didn’t even notice) when my bullet (an RWS 300Gr round nosed nickel jacketed FMJ solid) had passed through my targeted bull. Back in those days, you could barely get away with this sort of thing. I hesitate to think of the legal repercussions if a client made such a mistake on a Safari today.

In the mid 1980s, the concept of the controlled expansion bullet was first developed. Swift came out with the A Frame in 1984. Jack Carter developed the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in 1985. Barnes came out with the X in 1989. I was first introduced to the Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 300Gr factory load in 1993. And after just one Safari, I resolved to never employ solid bullets on Cape buffalo anymore. Here, we had a bullet which could cleanly penetrate a Cape buffalo from ANY angle while generating a desirably large wound cavity without any risk of passing completely through the target animal & accidentally wounding another head of game.
IMG_1356.jpeg
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Even though (post 1993) I mostly used the Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, I used other types of controlled expansion bullets over the years on Cape buffalo as well. The Barnes TSX and Rhino Solid Shank in particular, are stoutly constructed enough to even reach a Cape buffalo’s vital organs with shots taken at acute angles. They can even reach the brain with a shot taken under the Cape buffalo’s boss. Hence, I completely abandoned the solid for my Cape buffalo hunting purposes.

I hope that this provides some useful insight to your question.

On a related subject: In my field experience, a non expanding bullet under .450 caliber can’t be expected to reliably kill a Cape buffalo with a heart-lung shot all too quickly anyway.
 
About two weeks ago I returned from South Africa and a management bull and cow buffalo hunt. I got both critters with no drama at about 40-50 yards using a 375 H&H and 300 grain Federal premium ammo in a rented rifle.
After my hunt I was talking guns and bullets with the retired PH who actually owned the land upon which I had been hunting.
His opinion was that since the advent of the really good controlled expansion, mono copper bullets like the Barnes brand that he felt there really was no longer any real need for solids in the 375 caliber rifles and on up.
What’s your opinion?
My PH who has been hunting for over 40 years still prefers solids for buffalo. Both of my bulls were taken with solids from a .458 WM. I had wanted to use at a premium soft on the first shot at least on my second hunt, but he said there was no.need. I don't argue with people who do things for a living, so solids it was. One shot in through the shoulder and destroying the heart valves put him down within 25 yards. May have something to do with the larger bullet diameter of the .458, but it's kind of hard to argue with success.
 
Agreed with the others. A 300 gr TSX or Northfork cupped point solid (CPS) is really all you need as a client. Most PHs would probably recommend the TSX over the CPS but I have had some great results so far on DG and large bodied PG with the CPS. I plan on doing more work with it but I absolutely can recommend the TSX. This .416 400 gr CPS was recovered after traversing a large eland from tail to shoulder...over 6 feet.

View attachment 703008
Have you had any experience with the North Fork SS in 350 gr for the 375 H&H?
 
Very logical question to ask. Let me explain. When I first began hunting in Africa in 1974… the standard practice was to load a soft point for the first shot and solids for the follow up shot. In a magazine rifle, it was soft point in the chamber and solids in the magazine. In a double rifle, it was soft point in the first barrel & solid in the second barrel.

The logic was that (as a client hunter) your first shot would invariably be made from a perfectly broadside position (which your white hunter would get you to) and from this angle… the soft points of those days (for example: the RWS Kegelspitze Cone Point) could be reliably expected to penetrate into the heart-lung region behind the shoulder (provided that you avoided the heavy shoulder bone/humerus/scapula). After the first shot, the Cape buffalo would be either departing (i.e offering only quartering away or going away shots) or (relatively less commonly) charging (i.e offering only frontal shots). At these angles, the soft points of those days seldom could be reliably expected to penetrate deep enough into the vital organs. Hence, we had to rely exclusively upon the solid for follow up shots.

My initial set up (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum magazine rifles) was one RWS 300Gr Kegelspitze Cone Point followed by RWS 300Gr nickel jacketed round nosed FMJ solids (and later, Remington 300Gr Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids starting from 1982) in the rest of the magazine.
View attachment 703029View attachment 703030View attachment 703031View attachment 703032
In this double barreled .458 Winchester Magnum Belgium made boxlock ejector, it was a (hand loaded) Hornady 500Gr soft point in the left barrel for the first shot and a (hand loaded) Hornady 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid in the right barrel for the follow up shot.
View attachment 703033
Aside from the fact that soft points generated larger wound cavities in the vital organs of Cape buffalo on body shots to the heart-lung region (which accelerated blood loss and led to the game hemorrhaging faster from blood loss), they possessed one more advantage. They did not over penetrate. You see, the vast majority of African Cape buffalo are hunted in herds. And using solid bullets always runs the risk of accidentally wounding another animal after your bullet passes completely through your intended target animal. During my first Safari to Kenya in 1974, I had (in fact) accidentally wounded a Cape buffalo cow (which I didn’t even notice) when my bullet (an RWS 300Gr round nosed nickel jacketed FMJ solid) had passed through my targeted bull. Back in those days, you could barely get away with this sort of thing. I hesitate to think of the legal repercussions if a client made such a mistake on a Safari today.

In the mid 1980s, the concept of the controlled expansion bullet was first developed. Swift came out with the A Frame in 1984. Jack Carter developed the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in 1985. Barnes came out with the X in 1989. I was first introduced to the Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 300Gr factory load in 1993. And after just one Safari, I resolved to never employ solid bullets on Cape buffalo anymore. Here, we had a bullet which could cleanly penetrate a Cape buffalo from ANY angle while generating a desirably large wound cavity without any risk of passing completely through the target animal & accidentally wounding another head of game.
View attachment 703034View attachment 703035View attachment 703036View attachment 703037View attachment 703038View attachment 703039
Even though (post 1993) I mostly used the Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, I used other types of controlled expansion bullets over the years on Cape buffalo as well. The Barnes TSX and Rhino Solid Shank in particular, are stoutly constructed enough to even reach a Cape buffalo’s vital organs with shots taken at acute angles. They can even reach the brain with a shot taken under the Cape buffalo’s boss. Hence, I completely abandoned the solid for my Cape buffalo hunting purposes.

I hope that this provides some useful insight to your question.

On a related subject: In my field experience, a non expanding bullet under .450 caliber can’t be expected to reliably kill a Cape buffalo with a heart-lung shot all too quickly anyway.
And I will never argue with someone that has the vast experience of our friend Hunter-Habib!
 
Have you had any experience with the North Fork SS in 350 gr for the 375 H&H?
I think I have some on hand but have not done anything with them yet. I know Kevin Robertson is a big fan of the super heavy .375's but they affect the rock star versatility of the 375.
 
You need solids for elephant and rhino. Hippo on land i just don't know.

For Buffalo you do not need solids unless hunting with Hornady ammo. If you are using TSX, A-Frames, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, or any similar bullet of good quality and quality control. In other words a good quality mono metal or bonded bullet is all you need. This does not include Hornady GMX nor their DGX Bonded.... I've had both blow up and fragment and fail to penetrate.
Any experience with the new CX line? GMX seemed to be brittle in other calibers
 
Any experience with the new CX line? GMX seemed to be brittle in other calibers
No but so frustrated with Hornady I don't see a reason to even try it. So many more reliable products available.
 
My PH who has been hunting for over 40 years still prefers solids for buffalo. Both of my bulls were taken with solids from a .458 WM. I had wanted to use at a premium soft on the first shot at least on my second hunt, but he said there was no.need. I don't argue with people who do things for a living, so solids it was. One shot in through the shoulder and destroying the heart valves put him down within 25 yards. May have something to do with the larger bullet diameter of the .458, but it's kind of hard to argue with success.

That's just how it was in the past. More than 30 years ago, on my first buffalo hunt in Africa, the first thing a PH asked me was whether I had FMJ bullets with me. That's why I used several times thereafter 500gr FMJ bullets caliber 458 for shooting buffalo. Compared to SP bullets of the same caliber, I did not notice any difference in the effect after the same shot placement. The bigger caliber certainly plays a role, but the few buffalo I have shot with the cartridges 9,3x74R and 10,75x68, by using only FMJ bullets, took a few steps and then fell over. But using solids for hunting buffalos remains a controversial topic, above all among hunters who don't hunt buffalo for a very long time.
 
About two weeks ago I returned from South Africa and a management bull and cow buffalo hunt. I got both critters with no drama at about 40-50 yards using a 375 H&H and 300 grain Federal premium ammo in a rented rifle.
After my hunt I was talking guns and bullets with the retired PH who actually owned the land upon which I had been hunting.
His opinion was that since the advent of the really good controlled expansion, mono copper bullets like the Barnes brand that he felt there really was no longer any real need for solids in the 375 caliber rifles and on up.
What’s your opinion?
I absolutely agree with him except if you wanted to hunt elephant then without question you must have solids
 
Gday

Are we not understanding the mechanics/actuals of wounding with different types of designs ??
& more importantly applying those in various forms to the intended critter on a covering as most bases as possible ??

Then that’s all thrown up in the air when you bring in the killing efficiency levels one has individually & discussions like this often occur without the full picture often being understood

That discussion is extremely difficult to discuss & one that no doubt will continue &
Getting back to basics will help

Cheers
 
Gday

Are we not understanding the mechanics/actuals of wounding with different types of designs ??
& more importantly applying those in various forms to the intended critter on a covering as most bases as possible ??

Then that’s all thrown up in the air when you bring in the killing efficiency levels one has individually & discussions like this often occur without the full picture often being understood

That discussion is extremely difficult to discuss & one that no doubt will continue &
Getting back to basics will help

Cheers

I don't know what there is left to discuss. The current trend in buffalo hunting is the use of premium SP bullets that have proven effective due to their controlled expansion and low weight loss. We also know that some solids can, due to their design, also be very effective, but their use in buffalo hunting has not yet prevailed. Rethinking when a concept is stuck can take decades, but it may also never happen.

The topic is Need for Solids? The answer is no!
 
The only reason i think solids would come in handy is follow up shots in heavy cover. The deflection difference when engaging with targets in heavy brush can tip the scales towards solids always having a place. I know you can keyhole any type bullet but i think solids have a "solid" advantage when having to shoot thru brush.
 
The only reason i think solids would come in handy is follow up shots in heavy cover. The deflection difference when engaging with targets in heavy brush can tip the scales towards solids always having a place. I know you can keyhole any type bullet but i think solids have a "solid" advantage when having to shoot thru brush.
Shooting "through" brush is a myth. It doesn't matter what bullet is being used, tiny little branches, thought to be completely insignificant, will cause deflection. The only laws that apply are the laws of physics and if the bullet hits something before the intended target, there will be a change in course.
 
I use Swift A-frames almost exclusively in Africa. I won't use solids on Buffalo! The place for solids is
Elephants and tiny 10 and maybe Hippo.
Just about to try some North Fork in a couple doubles (SP & solids) for one other option.

As I have posted before I have utter distain for monoliths in general and especially Barnes. I know there
are those who think they are the only bullet made, but I've never found accuracy to be consistent and
failures are too common from what I've personally observed. The thing I dislike most on monoliths is
the copper fouling esp with Barnes. And for those who are infatuated with Barnes you can post your opinion and hate mail, its why I love this forum!
Just remember the old saying "Opinions are like A--Holes we all have one and they all stink" Including mine.
 

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