Mark Sullivan the Expose’

[Wishfulthinker580]

And he doesn't think of you when he's the thread's topic. Not one iota.

Wouldn’t expect him to . I’m a nobody

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

This thread man

 

[PerH]

More wisdom from him , always good to learn from experienced gigants .

 

[TOBY458]

More wisdom from him , always good to learn from experienced gigants .

Now this has me wanting another double rifle!

 

[Cls.44]

I'm a bit late to the thread but when I was a kid I just had to have one of his videos, so when I came across Death by the Ton I picked it up. Found it to be very entertaining at the time, however, the final hunt really soured me on Mr. Sullivan. The client had just arrived in camp and with enough daylight left they were off to hunt a hippo on land. They found the bull, and when it charged the client dropped it stone dead at close range with one of Mark's double rifles. Mark couldn't help himself and as soon as the bull hit the ground he threw a shot into it and scolded the client (more than once) for not letting the bull come closer. The client actually felt obliged to apologize! Your first african animal is a charging bull hippo (within hours of arriving), what a start to the hunt! Then being made to feel that you did something wrong by not giving your PH a chance to shoot it for you. Even without considering the thousands of dollars paid, that seemed to awfully low to me. I never felt the need to purchase any of his other videos.

 

[Laniarius]

I can credit Sullivan with selling me on the idea of "safari carry" for binoculars but I'm content with a girly .375 H&H.

 

[MS 9x56]

How do I block a whole thread?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

How do I block a whole thread?

If you’re getting notifications because you’ve commented in it before you can “unwatch” it and then you won’t get any notifications. Just click this button and it’ll ask you if you’re sure and voila no more alerts.

 

[Philip Glass]

It was not a long time ago that a lot of PH's insisted on using only solids. One of the most accomplished hunters, certain in numbers of game taken, Ron Thomson, only used solids iirc. Took 800 buffalo and more than 5000 elephants.

Likely that was all the quality ammo they had back then. There were no mono metal bullets that have replaced the solid for certain situations these days.
As far as Sullivan fits into his discussion, he advocates for nothing smaller than a .600 Nitro and call a .577 a minimum caliber for buffalo! This is in part due to his exclusive use of solids. I guess it's more fun to shoot them over and over and over again than to put them down hard with a couple of expanding bullets.

 

[MS 9x56]

If you’re getting notifications because you’ve commented in it before you can “unwatch” it and then you won’t get any notifications. Just click this button and it’ll ask you if you’re sure and voila no more alerts.
View attachment 696385

That’s a joke son! This thread is like driving by the scene of a grisly accident you can’t help but look.

 

[DieJager]

Likely that was all the quality ammo they had back then. There were no mono metal bullets that have replaced the solid for certain situations these days.

That was my point, current modern bullets made them somewhat obsolete. The discussion was that people were judging the use of solids only in the nineties. My only point was that the argument was faulty. It was not out of the ordinary in the period those videos were made.

As @Hunter-Habib pointed out somewhere in the 2000's he changed his opinion about using only solids. I have no dog in this fight, people can have their own opinion on mr. Sullivan. Not in the business of changing hearts. My objection is just people using faulty arguments.

 

[Rubberhead]

This thread is living proof...Mark Sullivan is a great marketer...

In all seriousness, I was neutral on Sullivan until I saw the Cal Pappas video. Mark is a genuine person. Even when consoling a client who just missed his dream shot at a buffalo, Mark immediately talks about the experience. The buffalo didn't need to be dead for the experience to be the main event. That's a higher level of understanding than many "TV" hunters will ever reach.

 

[BJH65]

That was my point, current modern bullets made them somewhat obsolete. The discussion was that people were judging the use of solids only in the nineties. My only point was that the argument was faulty. It was not out of the ordinary in the period those videos were made.

As @Hunter-Habib pointed out somewhere in the 2000's he changed his opinion about using only solids. I have no dog in this fight, people can have their own opinion on mr. Sullivan. Not in the business of changing hearts. My objection is just people using faulty arguments.

Even during the 90’s premium bullets like the Swift A Frame and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw where highly recommended for Buffalo, at least for the first shot then followed up by solids.

 

[HankBuck]

1. Heres’s where you compared hunting with a .375 bore to dueling a mortal with a rapier.
Post in thread 'Of Rat Calibers, Elephant and Buffalo, In Witness Protection'
https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ffalo-in-witness-protection.70909/post-961105
I take zero issue with your statements (I’ve been doing most of my hunting in Africa with a .375 bore as well). But a person making a statement like this, has (in my opinion) no sound reason to take Mark’s words of “Battling Cape buffalo” as offensive. Similar (or even more extreme) words have been used by authors all throughout history in order to describe their hunts.

2.You posted an interview of Mark’s words. I posted statistics of Mark’s actual hunts. A couple of weeks back, you quoted one of my replies and uploaded a video from “Africa’s Black Death” which many of you have (for years) been claiming is an example of Mark wounding Cape buffalo just to get it to charge. Closer examination of that video will show anybody that there’s no possible way he could have known that Cape buffalo would have charged when he started shooting it (and he only did so because his one armed diabetic client didn’t have the physical wherewithal to do the follow up job himself). Regardless of whatever Mark said, his actual numbers of wounded charging buffalo shot only by himself… are impressively low (three in a 35 year career, which is hardly enough for anybody to accuse him of “Shooting his client’s quarry”). And yes, when Mark posted that interview (in 1994), he had enacted a very unsound policy- Clients who booked hunts with him, could only use double rifles. Unreasonable, yes. But nobody was ever forced to hunt with him, ever after reading these conditions. They did it out of their own free will. And he himself came to his senses by 2004 and removed this clause. Being the experienced sportsman that you are, you will know that a good percentage of client hunters who bring double rifles on their first safaris… invariably tend to shoot poorly. In Mark’s 1994 interview, he highlighted this. And by 2004, he flat out changed his policy upon taking advice from Tony Sanchez Arino.

3. I don’t like Captive Bred Lion hunting either. I did it once in my life and resolved never to personally do so again (I’ve been mentioning this repeatedly for the last four years on these forums). But I also want my future generations of sportsmen to be able to hunt lion. Given the prices of wild lion hunts, many of these people have no choice but to go for CBL hunting. In a perfect world, this shouldn’t be the case. But then, so shouldn’t a lot of things. And it’s not like banning CBL will make the antis leave us alone. The whole “Cecil The Lion” fiasco involved a wild lion. And all CBL lion hunting is not the same.
As @Mark A Ouellette and @Rare Breed have proven, CBL hunting (if done properly) isn’t anywhere as bleak as the picture which some of it’s indiscriminate critics will paint. It’s still not my cup of tea, but if younger generations get a cheaper alternative to hunt lion… then, I’ll happily turn the other way as long as: a) They accept that this can never be the same as wild lion b) Certain conditions of the hunt are met (like not shooting the thing inside an enclosure barely the size of a tennis court a couple of days after releasing it).

4. You may not like long range hunting. In that case, my definition of “Long Range” is even more stringent than yours. I personally don’t do over one hundred yards for dangerous game and three hundred yards for plains game. But other people have a right to hunt the way that they want. If they find satisfaction in long range shooting, then I’m totally okay with it. We’re both old men and accept it or not, (unless science somehow advances enough to stop aging) the harsh truth is that hunting isn’t just about you or me or any single person in particular. It’s about many different kinds & generations of people passionately pursuing quarry in a manner which they are enthusiastic about (within reason). And long range hunting is gaining traction in some places. If somebody wants to snipe an antelope from a mile away, then (while I wouldn’t personally ever do such a thing) as long as they dropped it cleanly… I’m totally okay with that. Regarding the comment about ballistic turrets, I genuinely didn’t have you in mind when I said that one.

5. I genuinely didn’t mean you when I brought up the point about certain calibers being used on certain game animals. I actually wholeheartedly agree with your assessments made in regards to this topic. My comment was made with a thread about elk hunting in mind.

Finally, I’m genuinely sad that our differing opinions on Mark have brought us into an argument with each other. You’ve actually been very civil & helpful to me in the past (and solved a great problem for me before my 2023 Tanzanian safari). And that, I can never forget and will always be in your debt. But Mark stood up for me in the past, and If I find any accusations against him to be disagreeable… then, I’m going to speak up for him.

And I’ll conclude with one more thing. I don’t care about most of the online correspondents who my comments might offend (although I definitely don’t go out of my way to offend anybody either). But I’m genuinely sorry that our conflict of ideologies regarding a few topics brought out these unpleasant exchanges between me & you.

I feel very sad when I see hunters condemning hunters, Red Leg. It was this sort of in-fighting which led to severe restrictions on hunting & firearms ownership in our part of the world (and it happened while I was growing up before my very eyes). That’s why I pursued the career I did, so that I could reverse some of these restrictions. But by the time I was finally in a position to do something about all this, the damage was already done and it was far too late. I want to see more young people hunting without facing condemnation from their own kind. And yes, it’s not right to compare the West (first world countries) with us (third world countries). But the principle is still the same. In-fighting will destroy us & what we love so much. Maybe it won’t happen in your part of the world as quickly as it did in ours. But unless the in-fighting stops, it will happen. We must learn to tolerate other forms of hunting even if we personally don’t hunt that way. It’s the only way ahead.

@Hunter-Habib

More wisdom from him , always good to learn from experienced gigants .

@PerH @Hunter-Habib - Regardless of what your thoughts are on Mark Sullivan (and I included Hunter Habib on this for a reason) WATCH this video for the first few minutes as he shoots a buffalo very close on a full charge. Pay close attention to his LEFT Hand and his “fingers” as the buffalo is charging, his fingers “open & close” on the forend of the rifle two times before he fires —- very relaxed. He does Not have a tight hold on the forend, he cradles it as a top skeet or clays shooter would. That is how to consistently hit a moving target and good Sporting clays shooters “cradle” the forend as they shoot - they stay relaxed. But, I am VERY Impressed that anyone could be this “Relaxed” facing a charging Cape buffalo —- this is a person that is exceptionally focused and calm during a very high stress moment. I cannot imagine there is anyone better handling a life & death charge than this. Interested in other opinions and especially those that shoot skeet or sporting clays competitively. I find his “calm & focus” during that charge “incredible”.

 

[DieJager]

Even during the 90’s premium bullets like the Swift A Frame and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw where highly recommended for Buffalo, at least for the first shot then followed up by solids.

I did not now that. I thought it was much more mixed, that PH's were still transitioning slowly from solids to expanding bullets. Not as the current day and age where 99% is for using expanding bullets.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@Hunter-Habib

@PerH @Hunter-Habib - Regardless of what your thoughts are on Mark Sullivan (and I included Hunter Habib on this for a reason) WATCH this video for the first few minutes as he shoots a buffalo very close on a full charge. Pay close attention to his LEFT Hand and his “fingers” as the buffalo is charging, his fingers “open & close” on the forend of the rifle two times before he fires —- very relaxed. He does Not have a tight hold on the forend, he cradles it as a top skeet or clays shooter would. That is how to consistently hit a moving target and good Sporting clays shooters “cradle” the forend as they shoot - they stay relaxed. But, I am VERY Impressed that anyone could be this “Relaxed” facing a charging Cape buffalo —- this is a person that is exceptionally focused and calm during a very high stress moment. I cannot imagine there is anyone better handling a life & death charge than this. Interested in other opinions and especially those that shoot skeet or sporting clays competitively. I find his “calm & focus” during that charge “incredible”.

@HankBuck

This is how he practices between seasons. This is with Cal Pappa's John Wilkes boxlock extractor .600 Nitro Express a couple of weeks back.

 

[Fordy]

Gday Philip glass
Here’s a thought on below but let’s leave the “fun “part out & come from killing efficiency

Likely that was all the quality ammo they had back then. There were no mono metal bullets that have replaced the solid for certain situations these days.
As far as Sullivan fits into his discussion, he advocates for nothing smaller than a .600 Nitro and call a .577 a minimum caliber for buffalo! This is in part due to his exclusive use of solids. I guess it's more fun to shoot them over and over and over again than to put them down hard with a couple of expanding bullets.

Yep That was back then & goes all the way back to the evolution of bullets & how even the hard cast was superior to the round ball then the cup &core became superior then the partition became superior then the bonded became superior then the expanded monos done the same thing of those we have today are vastly superior to the original & the GPA took those to another level & somewhat refined by others from the original gpa & so on

they all gained once on the level of knowledge was understood that a bullets terminal performance could be improved/achieved & most of that has come from seeing failures or @ a minimum wanting better

So now we go to the true solids & point you made well of “Likely that was all the quality ammo they had back then.”
Yes totally agree as the advancements in true solids is pretty well understood I’m sure most understand as the discussion of flat nose vrs round nose is pretty well known

For which comes to my thought of are the true solids @ the pinnacle of what can be achieved for terminal performance ?

Hmmm no we are basically all ( with respect ) still having old school thoughts & stuck in the way of this is the best & on all that the vast majority shoot yet it’s already out there on what kills quicker

Penetration , width of that wound channel & placement is the basics of what kills & that’s why a true solid out of a . 510 with non traditional thoughts will stop a charging buff better than any larger caliber using traditional thoughts yet exactly the same profile of the pill

Just some thoughts now it’s back to the what side of the fence about mark one is on lol

Me to be clear I’m still a fence sitter as some great stuff on here by him others not so much but hey the world would be boring if we all done the same but learn we can & one I’m greatfull for what all the guys like this have done even if I agree or disagree as advancement is made

Cheers

 

[VertigoBE]

Penetration , width of that wound channel & placement is the basics of what kills & that’s why a true solid out of a . 510 with non traditional thoughts will stop a charging buff better than any larger caliber using traditional thoughts yet exactly the same profile of the pill

Hi @Fordy , I’m not quite sure I understood what you meant with the word “thoughts” in this phrase. Can you elaborate please?

 

[Fordy]

Gday vertigoBE
I’ll probably get a little anal but always looking for a better mousetrap so the following can still be improved on what has been observed so far

Hi @Fordy , I’m not quite sure I understood what you meant with the word “thoughts” in this phrase. Can you elaborate please?

Thanks for asking for clarification as my words are somewhat/sometimes misunderstood so apologies for that & in advance for most likely I’ll not relay correctly so pictures maybe my best bet ? & I’ll try to add those for additional context but please ask again if it’s not quite clear again as it’s quite interesting & obvious once you’ve seen it

The “thoughts “ I’ll stick to DG but ultimately it’s the same on the likes of a deer bullet etc just next level up with DG & not many comebacks when it goes wrong ( I’ve had to eat words on that a touch as one bullet company has turned this somewhat around on deer bullets so I’m not worried as killing is better so we all win but time will tell if he can replicate that ? )

Traditional: this is a lot of pills as they can’t withstand the pressures & why old school “ thoughts” hold up very well & its also the way we have been conditioned to think & in the case of rifles & more importantly bullets in the weight /speed & style of that which is so called needed to kill @ the highest level & in the case of this thread we see with respect to mark Sullivan he is somewhat stuck in the “traditional” sense as in his video in post #403
He states
The 500 pushes a 570 gr pill @ 2150 fps
The 577 pushes a 750 gr pill @ 2050 fps
The 600 pushes a 900 gr pill @ 2000fps
For all intensive purposes those impact velocities are the same
Now may have changed his thoughts as a few are seeing/pushing boundaries today of the old sectional density & can walk through water but not run analogy which still is fine as it works ( pill design comes more into play here but we are talking all same profiles so keeping that out for now )

Now in this case mark Sullivan is correct as the bigger pill diameter pushes more tissue sideways & produces a bigger wound hence the reason I’m guessing he’s seen the 577&600 do a better more consistent job of killing but watching everyone of those video’s your seeing no buffalo really hurt @ impact of the big bores

Non traditional : using these “thoughts” we need to clear our head first & understand where & what the pill needs to do in regards to penertration & pretty well it’s not go north to south of 2 buffalo & im happy if I can get to the hide like this from a frontal of a asiatic ( their hide is harder to penertrate & exit than cape ) to the rear end & I like to bust that backleg or pelvis if contact is made

Now by this we need the very best solids as a lot just won’t work satisfactory & anyway not really made by many anyway & brass is the top of the pack as copper even on very strong nose profile’s doesn’t stand up to well & sorts a lot of pills out

This has already started to be seen by some & let’s take the ceb safari solid as it seems popular around here for a good reason as it’s also what was in marks video in post #403 just need to address the less weight more speed mental hurdle
We have available @ our disposal in the 500 the 510 & 570 gr safari solids
Now the 510 can be comfortable run 300 fps quicker to 2450 fps MV

Ok so “traditional “ it’s regulated in the case of a double with 570 which is fine but a re regulation fixes that easy & checking impact point first would be needed imo anyway

Next part of the non traditional
try stopping one of those 510 gr solids in a buff end to end
So penetration requirements are fully met but still not what can be achieved but let’s stay with that for a moment

The 300 fps extra impact is extremely important as now we are getting into velocity brackets that have shown that once one gets to a next step up in velocity bracket we start seeing quicker kills but more importantly in this case the wound is widened considerably splitting sculls in various places where the slower pills punch holes through
Yes the 500 @ these speeds is starting to get there as the reaction of the bovines @ these speeds is one that shows a improvement but you still get a few that look unhurt on the non cns brain shots or body shots

Think of it this way do a bellyflop of a one meter diving board then go to the 3 meter diving board & see how much more pressure occurs on your body then go to the 5 meter then the 10 meter yep you can handle the lower ones of 1 & 3 but try functioning quickly off the 10 lol

So now we have the base started for the non traditional “ thoughts “ & that if someone want to take that to the next bracket level you’ll even get better

You see it a lot in these sub 2100 impacts on heart shots wounding capabilities as a lot of times you’ll just punch a hole clean through it that’s not a lot bigger than caliber yet the 2400 ish impacts watch the wound grow but overall 2650 ish blows heats up consistently & cracks skulls even on the non brain impacts


I’m wanting to know what 3 k impact will do in the 500 Jeffery & that is one that I’ll get close to once I figure a bit more out but a charge I’ve stopped wanting those these days
but I’ll happily take that ladies kids rifle over any of the bigger bores lol

Hopefully that explains a little more & not for everyone that’s for sure but it’s definitely a great alternative
Cheers