If the 9.3x62 became the new legal minimum?

[AZDAVE]

@One Day... Hey no worries. when I comment on things in some cases just trying to get people to think outside the box so to say. With everyone's opinion I also look at all that is presented as an opportunity to learn.

I have played with the 9.3x62 with 250, 286, 300 gr bullets. and the X74 with 286 and 300 gr In the x62 I have pushed stuff to 62K psi similar to the x64 and find them as a close ballistically IE the x64 holds the advantage in a mathematical comparison as I have no on game shots with the X64 so trying to learn. Also pushed the 375 H&H to its limits. The biggest things I have looked for is accuracy vs pure velocity.

also base my thoughts in talking to several well known PH's and african experts that have 100-over 600 buffalo on the ground with the x62.

I have a DG hunt planned for this year that will be using my 500/416 double. and a DG hunt in 2027 that will be using my 9.3x74 .

All things comes down to what you are comfortable with in coordination with your PH for your hunt.

 

[One Day...]

As to the 9.3x64, folks are often thinking that it is just a 9.3x62 case made 2 mm longer, hence it is virtually the same round.

Not at all!

The 9.3x64 case is significantly fatter (in fact a precursor of the beltless magnum) and the best way to compare the two rounds is to look at case capacity. The 9.3x62 has a case capacity of approximately 68 grains of water, and the 9.3x64 has a case capacity of approximately 88 grains of water: 30% more.

In addition the CIP / SAAMI pressure of the 9.3x64 is significantly superior: ~63,817 PSI vs. 56,565 PSI.

In summary, the 9.3x64 commercial loads launch a 286 gr bullet around 2,600-2,650, which is ~250 fps faster than a 9.3x62mm 286-grain load around 2350-2400 fps.

The 9.3x64 is not only truly equal to the .375 H&H, but one may reasonably argue that it is better due to its more modern case design, and 100 fps additional velocity.

 

[One Day...]

9.3x62 or 74R in an experienced hunters hands with the right bullets will kill anything on earth......many visiting huntets will be better off with these two....

Sure! True enough, but here again, the caveat "experienced hunters hands"...

Do we really believe that legal minimums were designed for experienced hunters?

@One Day... Hey no worries. when I comment on things in some cases just trying to get people to think outside the box so to say. With everyone's opinion I also look at all that is presented as an opportunity to learn.

I have played with the 9.3x62 with 250, 286, 300 gr bullets. and the X74 with 286 and 300 gr In the x62 I have pushed stuff to 62K psi similar to the x64 and find them as a close ballistically IE the x64 holds the advantage in a mathematical comparison as I have no on game shots with the X64 so trying to learn. Also pushed the 375 H&H to its limits. The biggest things I have looked for is accuracy vs pure velocity.

also base my thoughts in talking to several well known PH's and african experts that have 100-over 600 buffalo on the ground with the x62.

I have a DG hunt planned for this year that will be using my 500/416 double. and a DG hunt in 2027 that will be using my 9.3x74 .

All things comes down to what you are comfortable with in coordination with your PH for your hunt.

All good indeed Dave, and as previously stated I have no issue with what you are saying, you are one of the "experienced hands."

The thing is that many of us, here on AH, are indeed "experienced hands" and post to each others, but based on experience, a number of folks reading us before their first Safari, are NOT, and can occasionally draw the wrong conclusion: what works just fine for Kevin "Doctari" Robertson (and maybe us, although I would not even dream of putting myself in his class) may not work so well fo them

These are the folks I keep in mind when I post

 

[mrpski]

If the 9.3x62 became the new legal minimum caliber for dangerous game in all of Africa:
- Would you consider replacing your 375 with a 9.3 (If you did not currently own a 9.3x62)?
- For a one rifle safari, which included plains game and Cape buffalo, would you feel comfortable with only the 9.3x62?
- For someone who owns neither, but plans on hunting Africa (someday), asks you to help them choose between the 9.3x62 and 375?

I realize this has probably been kicked around in one form or another but, was hoping to get everyone’s thoughts.
Thanks...

Being from north America, I would stick with the 375. Works in Africa usually, and in North America completely. I've no need to shoot the critter that certain places in Africa require a 40+ bullet

 

[AZDAVE]

@One Day... in the past I looked at the x64 in depth. And like all the x64 rounds that Brenneke designed they are well thought out and very good rounds. The Russians use the round in some of their sniper rifles to get much better performance than the 7.62x54R they replaced. That says alot for the rounds capability

The only problem is the 9.3x64 logistics of feeding it here in the states. and have no idea about in Africa.

In the last 25 years I have shot more game in the US and Africa with 9.3's that everything else put together. I have worked hard to get within the capability of the rifle I am hunting with.

Being a retired engineer I go to depths on loads etc for my rifles and try and steer new folks into what will work for them and what they are planning on hunting and where.

The gentleman that taught me to shoot and reload were bench rest shooters for little rifles 375 and smaller who also corrupted me into big bores. I am forever grateful for them taking the time to take a kid under their wings and teach me.

For most folks starting into the DG arena a 375 H&H or if they can handle the recoil with proper instruction the 416's (My wife just made off with my 416 ruger and 458 B&M super short) are the best way to go till they have some experience.

 

[IvW]

Most German designed hunting cartridges work......

 

[One Day...]

To the best of my understanding, AZDAVE, aside from the military Barnaul 9SN load for the SVDK variant of the Dragunov, and a hunting load very occasionally seen in the US under the Brown Bear brand, it seems that the 9.3x64 is probably on the way out

Not due to its performance - as we clearly both know - but due to commercial ammo availability, or lack thereof, even in Europe where it never really gained popularity because the x62 is plenty enough for the biggest wild boar, red stag, or even diminutive Scandinavian moose or Polish bison, and because nothing in Europe really justifies the x64 recoil... RWS still load it, and maybe (?) Sellier & Bellot still do, but I think that's it, and I do not think that I have ever seen a 9.3x64 rifle in Africa

I do agree with earlier posts, that had Germany won WWI and had Kenya become a German colony as opposed to Tanganyika becoming a British colony, the gentry hunting East Africa would have been Teutonic rather than Victorian, and the 9.3x64 would probably occupy the .375 H&H throne (with the x62 equally mass-distributed in either case to the same plebeian class of both German and English speaking worker bees...).

It was long one of my fascinations, and I dreamt for many years as a young man in Europe of a Mauser 66 with 6.5x68, 8x68, and 9.3x64 barrels. What a rifle it would have been! I briefly explored the thought again when I moved to the Blaser R8, but discovered to my dismay that they offer neither 6.5x68 nor 9.3x64 pipes, and .257 Wby, .300 Wby and .375 H&H (+ .458 Lott) made all the sense in the world...

I am not even sure that any commercial rifle maker has the 9.3x64 as a regular offering anymore...

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi One Day,

"The 9.3x64 case is significantly fatter (in fact a precursor of the beltless magnum) and the best way to compare the two rounds is to look at case capacity. The 9.3x62 has a case capacity of approximately 68 grains of water, and the 9.3x64 has a case capacity of approximately 88 grains of water: 30% more.

I don't know where you took this numbers from.
The correct ones for 9,3x62-9,3x64-375 H&H are:
76 grs -84 grs -95,5 grs.
So, the differences between them, in %, are, aprox, 12 to 13%, in the row.
If we take the experimental "rule of 4" (John Barsness) the potencial increment of velocity, ALL OTHER FACTORS THE SAME, is 1/4 the difference in case volumes, in %.
So, with the 9,3x64 you can get 3% more velocity than with the 9,3x62. And with the 375 H&H another 3% more velocity than with the 9,3x64. Period.

So, we can elaborate and conclude anything, but starting from the correct numbers.

Best!

CF

 

[IvW]

Sure! True enough, but here again, the caveat "experienced hunters hands"...

Do we really believe that legal minimums were designed for experienced hunters?



All good indeed Dave, and as previously stated I have no issue with what you are saying, you are one of the "experienced hands."

The thing is that many of us, here on AH, are indeed "experienced hands" and post to each others, but based on experience, a number of folks reading us before their first Safari, are NOT, and can occasionally draw the wrong conclusion: what works just fine for Kevin "Doctari" Robertson (and maybe us, although I would not even dream of putting myself in his class) may not work so well fo them

These are the folks I keep in mind when I post

Should be otherwise where do you draw the line? Some cannot handle 375 H&H let alone bigger calibers....
Why do we need to knock a capable calibre because of hunter incompetance?
Question was is 9.3 as a minimum capable? It sure is.....if the shooter is....

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

View attachment 694625

250 gr at 2,651 fps = 3,900 ft/lbs

286 gr at 2,495 fps = 3,952 ft/lbs

Cheers! Bob F.

@BFaucett
Or the 35 Whelen
250gn at 2,700fps= 4,000+ fpe
275gn at 2,500+fps= 4,000fpe
310gn at 2,455fps= 4,000 fpe
All equal the minimum standards but .008" to small.
That's life

 

[One Day...]

Hi One Day,

"The 9.3x64 case is significantly fatter (in fact a precursor of the beltless magnum) and the best way to compare the two rounds is to look at case capacity. The 9.3x62 has a case capacity of approximately 68 grains of water, and the 9.3x64 has a case capacity of approximately 88 grains of water: 30% more.

I don't know where you took this numbers from.
The correct ones for 9,3x62-9,3x64-375 H&H are:
76 grs -84 grs -95,5 grs.
So, the differences between them, in %, are, aprox, 12 to 13%, in the row.
If we take the experimental "rule of 4" (John Barsness) the potencial increment of velocity, ALL OTHER FACTORS THE SAME, is 1/4 the difference in case volumes, in %.
So, with the 9,3x64 you can get 3% more velocity than with the 9,3x62. And with the 375 H&H another 3% more velocity than with the 9,3x64. Period.

So, we can elaborate and conclude anything, but starting from the correct numbers.

Best!

CF

My mistake Clodo, I meant 78 gr for the x62 and 88 gr for the x64. I stand happily corrected

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hi One Day,

"The 9.3x64 case is significantly fatter (in fact a precursor of the beltless magnum) and the best way to compare the two rounds is to look at case capacity. The 9.3x62 has a case capacity of approximately 68 grains of water, and the 9.3x64 has a case capacity of approximately 88 grains of water: 30% more.

I don't know where you took this numbers from.
The correct ones for 9,3x62-9,3x64-375 H&H are:
76 grs -84 grs -95,5 grs.
So, the differences between them, in %, are, aprox, 12 to 13%, in the row.
If we take the experimental "rule of 4" (John Barsness) the potencial increment of velocity, ALL OTHER FACTORS THE SAME, is 1/4 the difference in case volumes, in %.
So, with the 9,3x64 you can get 3% more velocity than with the 9,3x62. And with the 375 H&H another 3% more velocity than with the 9,3x64. Period.

So, we can elaborate and conclude anything, but starting from the correct numbers.

Best!

CF

@Clodo Ferreira
Paper ballistics are all well and good but it doesn't explain why some cartridges kill out of all proportion to what papers says it should do.
The 358win, 35 Whelen, 9.3x62 and a few other mediums like the 333jef, 318 and others are classic examples. These rounds kill far better than what paper ballistics say they should.
Just because it is written doesn't always give a true indication of capabilities.
Just my humble opinion.
Bob

 

[One Day...]

Should be otherwise where do you draw the line? Some cannot handle 375 H&H let alone bigger calibers....
Why do we need to knock a capable calibre because of hunter incompetance?
Question was is 9.3 as a minimum capable? It sure is.....if the shooter is....

I am not sure that I would use the word "incompetence", Ivor, but recoil-control ability is indeed a very good point, that I have been pondering myself a lot with my wife's DG R8 barrel being a 9.3x62 because the .375 H&H is too much gun for her.

I guess it all boils down to how we address the "standard case" (typical Safaris golden era not-necessarily-experienced male visiting hunter assumed by African games departments to be physically able to shoot the .375 H&H) vs. how we address "special cases" (e.g. long-experienced hunters; petite female hunters who may be very competent but recoil-limited; male hunters with recoil-sensitive disabilities; etc. etc.).

All I can say is that I wish the 9.3x62 commercial loads were legal, because this would mean that my wife could hunt DG in a lot more places than South Africa without having to worry about the technical legalities of it -- and I would still consider the 9.3x62 marginal and I would still back her up with my .458 Lott -- but I understand why most parks or game departments adopted the KISS principle in their regulations...

... or maybe they just meant it even simpler, the uncomplicated ways of their times, before diversity, equity, inclusion and political correctness existed: if you cannot shoot the .375 H&H, you cannot come hunt DG here.

... or maybe, for sure Kenyan, Tanganyikan, or Rhodesian wardens had to know that a lot of hunting, especially by local folks, took place with calibers technically illegal, but they did not enforce that part of the regs as long as folks did not do stupid things.

I don't know... and I agree that a lot of things do not make sense in these often 100 year old regs... but be all that as it may, the 9.3x62 indeed works, but only just, so "caveat emptor"...

 

[MS 9x56]

Once you have enough for consistent success is more really better? Asking for a friend

 

[One Day...]

It all depends on how much safety margin you want on Buffalo

• Some want a lot and go with .45+
• Others want some and go with .375 H&H
• Others still are happy with very little and go with 9.3x62

It also all depends on how many DG rifles you want

• Some want one rifle that will do it all including Elephant, Hippo on land, etc. and provide "stopping power" in case things do not go as planned and go with .45+
• Others want one rifle that will do it all including Elephant, Hippo on land, etc. but rely on their PH exclusively for stopping duties and are happy with .375 H&H
• Other still want different rifles for different DG and go with 9.3x62 for smaller DG and a .375 H&H and/or a .45+ for bigger DG

And of course it all depends on how big a gun one can shoot reliably and accurately

• Some meet their recoil threshold with 9.3x62
• Others meet their recoil threshold with .375 H&H
• Others still meet their recoil threshold with .45+

Oh, and hmmm, there is also this pesky little tiny thing about what is legal in the country you hunt, and your own personal tolerance for annoyance and/or legal risk in case you bump into a Game Scout determined to show you who is boss

In the end, 9.3x62, .375 H&H, and, obviously, .45+ ARE different, but it is all about what floats your boat

And I did not mention 9.3x64 simply because it has become generally unavailable (rifles and ammo) but as far as what is best: .375 H&H or 9.3x64?

 

[One Day...]

So, in conclusion, "if the 9-3x62 became the new legal minimum"...

... it would still be a personal choice;
... and some would still want more or less safety margin;
... and some would still want one rifle for all DG;
... and some would still want one rifle for smaller DG and one bigger rifle for bigger DG;
... and some could still shoot bigger or smaller guns;
... and 9.3x62 and .375 H&H commercial loads would still be separated by a 25% power gap;
... and some could still reload 9.3x62 beyond commercial loads;

... but at least MS 9x56, IvW, AZDAVE, Clodo Ferreira, BFaucett, etc. -- and my wife -- could hunt Buffalo with their 9.3x62 legally in Botswana, Namibia, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe, all Provinces of South Africa, Central African Republic, etc.

I personally would like the regs to allows 9.3x62 for DG in those countries, but I would still recommend .375 H&H as a general sensible minimum for ALL DG and MOST hunters, and certainly, for those who can shoot them well, .40+ or .45+ give an edge when something is on its way to bite a whole lot of holes in your skin or stump you into an unseemingly mess on the African soil...

 

[foxtrot1]

Go to 8:15. Guy takes a quartering to shot on this bull buffalo with 9.3x62 with norma ammo. Would it have died any quicker of that had been a .375? Below is a still photo of the bullet impact.

If I was solo I would probably feel better with a .4+ rifle, but if there's a second rifle that's a stopping rifle, I don't see an issue with carrying a 9.3x62.

zEjui6nc?feature=shared

 

[Tanks]

If I was solo I would probably feel better with a .4+ rifle, but if there's a second rifle that's a stopping rifle, I don't see an issue with carrying a 9.3x62.

If you feel 9.3x62 cannot be trusted to save your life solo, then why would you even consider it, period. Might as well go with 6.5 Creedmoor using that logic.

 

[foxtrot1]

If you feel 9.3x62 cannot be trusted to save your life solo, then why would you even consider it, period. Might as well go with 6.5 Creedmoor using that logic.

It's not a trust issue. It's a best tool for the job at hand issue. If I'm going after any wounded dangerous game in thick cover, I would prefer a double in a stopping caliber. If someone is with me and his job is recovery, he can carry the double. If I'm hunting and end up with a bolt action 9.3 in my hands when it's time to sort out a wounded animal, so be it. I'm pretty confident in my ability to cover myself.

If I'm hunting buffalo everyday, or very often, I would prefer a dedicated buff rifle that's. 4+. A 9.3 is an all around cartridge. So is a .375... would I be worried about being undergunned with a 9.3 rather than a .375...no. Doubt the buff can tell the difference between the 2.

Honestly, I'd worry more about who's with me than me only having a 9.3x62. Probably more likely to get shot when things go south, than being gored because I only have a 9.3.

 

[Tanks]

If I'm going after any wounded dangerous game in thick cover, I would prefer a double in a stopping caliber. If someone is with me and his job is recovery, he can carry the double.

The problem is that that person might not have a shot due to obstruction, a person in his way etc., etc.. Then, it is up to you. That happened to me when an elephant charged out of the bushes at us and his tracker was in the way and I stopped the elephant with a .500 MDM. We were on the sand and he came barreling through the bushes from our left. I didn't even have to pay for him as it was self-defence.