.270win and lead free ammunition

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Nice bull. Where did the bullet hit?

Lungs. I find that when I shoot critters there they die.

 

[Tra3]

I have never shot an animal with them, but they were not accurate in the rifle that I loaded them.for. It is my feeling that they were created more to satisfy the "Greenies" than to improve the efficiency of a cartridge. Copper is less dense than lead, and harder. It brings it's own issues.

You don’t know what you are missing! They are worth trying. I find that I am more likely to get pass through shots with them and good exit holes. I’ve used barnes for the last 3 safaris and use them in the USA for elk, deer and antelope. I’ve used a variety of other bullets too, but if the rifle likes barnes, i pick them first.

The university of minnesota did a study on led fragmentation in hunted game. It was alarming. I have kids. If I don’t have to take a risk of them (or me) eating lead, that is a big positive.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

You have never used the TSX or other copper monolithic bullet on animals, and that qualifies you to claim they are not good hunting bullets? How so?

My advice is that you try them and then build an opinion based on actual experience. You are correct that they were developed and required in some states to satisfy the Greenies misguided environmentalist BS. But, they still work very well if you know how to choose them for a given rifle.

Try them but, first do this... Use a lighter bullet than your usual. If your rifle likes a 150g bullet then use the next size lighter in the Barnes or other monolithic. Why? Because for the same weight bullet the Barnes must be longer and thus harder to stabilize. My 7mm/08 shoots 1/2" groups with a 140g Barnes TTSX and likewise shoots a 150g Swift Scirocco just as well. My 7mm Mag likes a 175g bonded copper/lead bullet but loves the 160g Barnes copper bullet. Also shoots 1/2" at 100y.

I killed a Blue Wildebeest with a 375HH loaded with the TSX 300g bullet and the first shot was fatal a frontal at 180y off sticks and it dropped after a 60y run. We shot it two more times just to shorten the finish but it never regained its feet. Those bullets expanded to 2.0x and 2.2x and penetrated nearly 3 ft of the animal. It was a SCI Gold Medal record (preliminary) and weighed over 600lbs. Weight retention was 100%. I am not a great fan of the monolithics but my experience with them has been great.


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I also have many animals killed quite dead with lead based bullets. At which point did mono bullets become more effective than lead based bullets? That was the original question. I stirred up the shit storm by saying that I didn't think an all all copper bullet would make a .270 more capable than it is with quality leaded bullets. I still don't. As an example, I shot a very large waterbuck in the chest from the front. He took about two steps and rolled into th bottom of a dry river bed. He was very dead and did not require any more shots from my .300 WM.

Using Nosler AccuBonds I haven't had to shoot anything more than once except for a bull moose that bailed out at 165 yards. The first shot went through his back leg. I suppose that a Barnes bullet would have killed him with a shot like that? Using the .300, a 7 RM and a 7-08. Many animals have died in Washington, B.C. and Zimbabwe. I see no reason to change to mono bullets.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

You don’t know what you are missing! They are worth trying. I find that I am more likely to get pass through shots with them and good exit holes. I’ve used barnes for the last 3 safaris and use them in the USA for elk, deer and antelope. I’ve used a variety of other bullets too, but if the rifle likes barnes, i pick them first.

The university of minnesota did a study on led fragmentation in hunted game. It was alarming. I have kids. If I don’t have to take a risk of them (or me) eating lead, that is a big positive.

And yet a study done it n.humans that ate a lot of game shot with lead bullets and bird shot did not show higher concentrations of lead in their blood streams than did those that did not eat game meat. I think of my grandparents that all ate game for their entire lives. They all died as old people. So lead in game meat doesn't concern me.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Lungs. I find that when I shoot critters there they die.

Good. Now did you recover the bullet? Had it expanded? I have read many accounts of mono bullets failing to expand on long shots.

 

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Good. Now did you recover the bullet? Had it expanded? I have read many accounts of mono bullets failing to expand on long shots.

Not recovered on the elk. Prior year I shot a caribou and a moose in Manitoba with Nosler E-tips in a 300 WM at 350 and 300 yards respectively. Great performance. No issues. Love non-lead bullets

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I also have many animals killed quite dead with lead based bullets. At which point did mono bullets become more effective than lead based bullets? That was the original question. I stirred up the shit storm by saying that I didn't think an all all copper bullet would make a .270 more capable than it is with quality leaded bullets. I still don't. As an example, I shot a very large waterbuck in the chest from the front. He took about two steps and rolled into th bottom of a dry river bed. He was very dead and did not require any more shots from my .300 WM.

Using Nosler AccuBonds I haven't had to shoot anything more than once except for a bull moose that bailed out at 165 yards. The first shot went through his back leg. I suppose that a Barnes bullet would have killed him with a shot like that? Using the .300, a 7 RM and a 7-08. Many animals have died in Washington, B.C. and Zimbabwe. I see no reason to change to mono bullets.

I get your point brother. I think we are mostly of the same mind on this issue. You sound like a very experienced hunter.

I too have killed many critters using a variety of lead core bullets. For many years, my go to was either the 308 or the 270 loaded with Nosler BT's in 165g or 130g respectively. For deer & wild boar over about 35yrs or so, these resulted in 1-shot kills 100% of the time. In Africa, I used an old vintage FN Browning Mauser style rifle in 308 to take everything from little Duiker to a very large Gemsbok all with one shot each with 180g Fed Fusion lead core bonded bullets. I could not have had better results had I struck them with lightning. Stunning performance and none ran more than 60y and most dropped in their tracks. So, I agree with you that lead core bullets get the job done. But, that fact does not make the copper TSX type bullets a bad choice. They are simply different.

Compared to a quality lead core bonded bullet I think the main differences compared to a copper expanding bullet are these:

• Copper expanding bullet will often penetrate deeper.
• Copper will retain 100% of its mass almost all the time. Some cases of a petal breaking off do occur.
• Copper will often not expand quite as much as lead core but the expansion seems to adjust based on the range to the tgt so that it always penetrates enough to result in a good kill.
• Animals shot with copper TSX do not often result in a "Bang Flop" result. Some minor tracking may be required.
• Copper works well when breaking bones is needed to reach vitals like with some of the African PG and DG animals.
• Lead core often expands more violently and dumps more energy in the first 8-12 inches of the wound path. That may or may not be a plus depending on the angle of penetration and the size of the prey.
• Copper TSX type may not be better, only different and either type works when the hunter places that good first shot.

One thing I do with TSX type bullets to insure good results it that regardless of caliber, I limit my shots to ranges that will deliver the bullet down range at a minimum speed of 2000fps to insure that the copper bullet will expand adequately. This is usually around 400y for most. I also limit my shots from off sticks to those ranges that I can confidently shoot with accuracy. For me, that works out to about 300y max off sticks. And then I try to get closer when I can. This varies with the animal, terrain and cover. But, usually I can get to 200y unless out West on the open plains. I practice at much longer ranges out past 400y with my hunting rifles so that a 250y shot feels like a chip shot most of the time. Most of my rifles love the Barnes ammo but like others stated, they do like clean bbls.

When I clean my bbl, I do not use a copper solvent. What I do is clean the chamber with a carbon solvent and then lightly polish the bore with a very mild polish like KG-2 Bore Polish followed by wet/dry patches using only the carbon solvent. This removes the copper fouling from the surface of the bore but leaves it in the micro-pores of the steel surface. The result is a very smooth surface on the inside of the bore and also delivers a very accurate and consistent cold bore first shot. Finally, before hunting, I fire one or two of the cartridges I plan to hunt with just to burn away any residual oils or solvents from the bore. I learned this method over time as a competitive national class precision rifle marksman and former national champion shooter. It is excessive attention to detail for hunting alone but it gives me the confidence to take shots quickly in the field when necessary.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I get your point brother. I think we are mostly of the same mind on this issue. You sound like a very experienced hunter.

I too have killed many critters using a variety of lead core bullets. For many years, my go to was either the 308 or the 270 loaded with Nosler BT's in 165g or 130g respectively. For deer & wild boar over about 35yrs or so, these resulted in 1-shot kills 100% of the time. In Africa, I used an old vintage FN Browning Mauser style rifle in 308 to take everything from little Duiker to a very large Gemsbok all with one shot each with 180g Fed Fusion lead core bonded bullets. I could not have had better results had I struck them with lightning. Stunning performance and none ran more than 60y and most dropped in their tracks. So, I agree with you that lead core bullets get the job done. But, that fact does not make the copper TSX type bullets a bad choice. They are simply different.

Compared to a quality lead core bonded bullet I think the main differences compared to a copper expanding bullet are these:

• Copper expanding bullet will often penetrate deeper.
• Copper will retain 100% of its mass almost all the time. Some cases of a petal breaking off do occur.
• Copper will often not expand quite as much as lead core but the expansion seems to adjust based on the range to the tgt so that it always penetrates enough to result in a good kill.
• Animals shot with copper TSX do not often result in a "Bang Flop" result. Some minor tracking may be required.
• Copper works well when breaking bones is needed to reach vitals like with some of the African PG and DG animals.
• Lead core often expands more violently and dumps more energy in the first 8-12 inches of the wound path. That may or may not be a plus depending on the angle of penetration and the size of the prey.
• Copper TSX type may not be better, only different and either type works when the hunter places that good first shot.

One thing I do with TSX type bullets to insure good results it that regardless of caliber, I limit my shots to ranges that will deliver the bullet down range at a minimum speed of 2000fps to insure that the copper bullet will expand adequately. This is usually around 400y for most. I also limit my shots from off sticks to those ranges that I can confidently shoot with accuracy. For me, that works out to about 300y max off sticks. And then I try to get closer when I can. This varies with the animal, terrain and cover. But, usually I can get to 200y unless out West on the open plains. I practice at much longer ranges out past 400y with my hunting rifles so that a 250y shot feels like a chip shot most of the time. Most of my rifles love the Barnes ammo but like others stated, they do like clean bbls.

When I clean my bbl, I do not use a copper solvent. What I do is clean the chamber with a carbon solvent and then lightly polish the bore with a very mild polish like KG-2 Bore Polish followed by wet/dry patches using only the carbon solvent. This removes the copper fouling from the surface of the bore but leaves it in the micro-pores of the steel surface. The result is a very smooth surface on the inside of the bore and also delivers a very accurate and consistent cold bore first shot. Finally, before hunting, I fire one or two of the cartridges I plan to hunt with just to burn away any residual oils or solvents from the bore. I learned this method over time as a competitive national class precision rifle marksman and former national champion shooter. It is excessive attention to detail for hunting alone but it gives me the confidence to take shots quickly in the field when necessary.

Now this I can believe. It makes a lot more sense than just a belief that switching to copper bullets will make a rifle more lethal. Sometimes they work well and other times lead is still better.

Maybe I would have had better results with copper bullets if I had gone through the intensive cleaning procedure that you described. I can't say I've ever heard of a specific carbon solvent or KG-2 Bore Polish.

Thanks,
Doug

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I've read that the .270win is a marginal calibre for larger plains game. Has the development of lead free ammunition made it a more viable option?

@Slim01
I've only ever shot one animal a sambar buck with a 270 and a mono bullet. That bullet was an Australian made 130gn ACP @3,100fps. Range was less than 100 yards. It just crumpled on the spot.
So based on my very limited experience I would say you could use it as a sensible minimum on most plains game up to 600#.
That just my thoughts based on very limited experience.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Wow, you really think that?

A gentleman took the North American slam with his 257 Weatherby. Him using a Barnes for everything made it possible for moose and bison, so in my mind Barnes mad that 257 “more lethal”

@dchum
The Barnes made the 257s even more gooder than they already were. The 25s were good to start with but monos and bonded made them ever betterer.
Now that good Inglish for this hour of the morning and only one coffee
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Friends of mine still in California would not agree. Anyway, didn't Roy Weatherby use his .257 Wby. to kill a cape buffalo? I never thought that was a good idea, using mono bullets would not change my mind.

@Doug Hamilton
I don't know if'n Roy killed a cape buff with the 257 Weatherby but he did kill a rhino with one.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I've been shooting nothing but Barnes for the last 25 years and have had zero problems with accuracy, and in most cases they are more accurate than cup and core bullets.

The one problem that arises is that they love a clean barrel, if you don't get the copper fouling out your accuracy is going to suffer.

As for distances, I have one elk taken at 700+ yards with the Barnes, a coues deer at 420 yards and my kudu on my first safari at 479 yards. All with Barnes TTSX and one shot kills except for the elk and I hit him twice, both were kill shots. But as anyone that has hunted elk knows, if they are still standing you need to keep shooting.

Barnes works so well for me I even shoot them out of my muzzle loader.

@JimP
My 25 must be strange because I can fire 117gn SST then 115 gn Nosler combined technology Silver tips followed by 100gn barnt TTSX and the Barnes will still group 0.8" at 200 yards. I haven't cleaned my 25 barrel in over 100 rounds of different ammo and it is still extremely accurate with the TTSX.
Just my observation in MY rifle.
Bob

 

[HankBuck]

I do not think that lead free ammunition has made any cartridge more lethal.

@Doug Hamilton - agree, it was Damn lethal since birth…many good lead bullets for it today and back in YesterYear.

 

[HankBuck]

@Doug Hamilton
I don't know if'n Roy killed a cape buff with the 257 Weatherby but he did kill a rhino with one.
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen — there you go again Bob, fawning over a .25 cal bullet (.257 killed a Rhino?) just to make the .243 (cute girl at the dance) jealous. People are gonna start talking, something’s going on here (behind closed doors maybe??)

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You don’t know what you are missing! They are worth trying. I find that I am more likely to get pass through shots with them and good exit holes. I’ve used barnes for the last 3 safaris and use them in the USA for elk, deer and antelope. I’ve used a variety of other bullets too, but if the rifle likes barnes, i pick them first.

The university of minnesota did a study on led fragmentation in hunted game. It was alarming. I have kids. If I don’t have to take a risk of them (or me) eating lead, that is a big positive.

@Tra3
University studies can and do skew results to suit themselves..
The amount of lead ingested from eating one animal would be miniscule in reality. Yes lead is a heavy metal but you would have to eat a lot of animals for it to have an effect.
For years we had lead water pipes that probably had us ingesting more lead than we thought but you don't hear about that.
It was only when they found that heavy metals could cause heath issues that things changed.
Personally I think the lead content in animals we consume is that small it's not worth worrying about. How many rabbits have you eaten that have been shot with a 22lr and it hasn't affected you.
Micro plastics in sea food pose a far bigger danger to humans than consuming meat from animals shot with lead projectiles.
These are just MY THOUGHTS after eating a truck load of game meat shot with lead ammo.

Dang universities at one time said peanut butter caused cancer, sex was bad for you because the exertion could cause heart attacks and read wine consumption of a couple of glasses a day and you were an alcoholic. They have since back pedaled on these things.
I rest my case your honour.
Bob

 

[Doug Hamilton]

@Doug Hamilton
I don't know if'n Roy killed a cape buff with the 257 Weatherby but he did kill a rhino with one.
Bob

I wouldn't use one on a cape buffalo OR a rhino!

 

[WyoBull]

I have used nothing but Barnes bullets in my big game calibers for years. I run them a little on the hot side and get not only great accuracy but excellent results.
As was said previously regarding Barnes, use a 30% lighter bullet than what you would in a lead core bullet. If using a 130 gr lead core bullet, use a 100 gr Barnes as an example.

 

[HankBuck]

@Tra3
University studies can and do skew results to suit themselves..
The amount of lead ingested from eating one animal would be miniscule in reality. Yes lead is a heavy metal but you would have to eat a lot of animals for it to have an effect.
For years we had lead water pipes that probably had us ingesting more lead than we thought but you don't hear about that.
It was only when they found that heavy metals could cause heath issues that things changed.
Personally I think the lead content in animals we consume is that small it's not worth worrying about. How many rabbits have you eaten that have been shot with a 22lr and it hasn't affected you.
Micro plastics in sea food pose a far bigger danger to humans than consuming meat from animals shot with lead projectiles.
These are just MY THOUGHTS after eating a truck load of game meat shot with lead ammo.

Dang universities at one time said peanut butter caused cancer, sex was bad for you because the exertion could cause heart attacks and read wine consumption of a couple of glasses a day and you were an alcoholic. They have since back pedaled on these things.
I rest my case your honour.
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen - agree, any kid that can’t eat some Lead —- probebly won’t like Beer either !! And will never be a good Hunter (complains too much !).
Growing up in the ‘60s-70s everything had lead - the shotgun shells, the paint, the pipes…how bad could it be?

 

[Doug Hamilton]

@Doug Hamilton - agree, it was Damn lethal since birth…many good lead bullets for it today and back in YesterYear.

Yes, and despite the fact that many people believe that mono bullets are as capable as bonded lead core bullets, I have seen nothing that shows that a .270 (or any other cartridge) becomes more capable than it would be because mono bullets are used. That is exactly what I said when this thread started. I tried loading them one time and did not like the result. There have been lead core bullets that I have not been impressed with and didn't use them any more either.

 

[TMac]

@JimP
My 25 must be strange because I can fire 117gn SST then 115 gn Nosler combined technology Silver tips followed by 100gn barnt TTSX and the Barnes will still group 0.8" at 200 yards. I haven't cleaned my 25 barrel in over 100 rounds of different ammo and it is still extremely accurate with the TTSX.
Just my observation in MY rifle.
Bob

I shoot TTSX and LRX quite a bit. I have not shot the TSX due to my aversion to small to medium caliber hollow point bullets of any kind for hunting. Hammers, with their fragmenting design are another mono I have not tried.

I have one rifle that needs cleaned and copper removed after 20-25 rounds or accuracy noticeably suffers when shooting TTSX’s. . Have another that behaves like your 25. Can shoot about anything, including LRX/TTSX’s, several hundred rounds, it does not care, it remains accurate.

Both rifles mentioned are SS Tikka’s in 270 Win. Every rifle is a rule to itself. TTSX’s out of a 270 Win work very well on NA game like deer, elk, and will be used for Moose in Canada this season with no worries. We go light for caliber and keep impacts above 2,000 fps. We do the same with Accubonds, Partitions, Trophy Bonded Tips, Interlocks, etc, but with medium to heavy for caliber bullets. All are deadly when properly employed.