No-Man's Land - Fact or Fiction?

[112Savage]

You can see both entrance holes at the tip of his ear and just behind it

 

[absales]

These pictures are from my personal trail camera. They are from the 2022 season. Looks like the deer jumped the string a bit would be my guess. This Buck was finally killed this past season by the same hunter who put the arrow in it

 

[Hunt anything]

That’s something!! What kind of rack did he grow after the injury and what did the wound look like when he was killed?

 

[absales]

That’s something!! What kind of rack did he grow after the injury and what did the wound look like when he was killed?

Unfortunately I wasn't the lucky hunter to get him lol. I cant seem to find the picture of him after he was killed. If memory serves me he had about the same rack but with more mass at the antler base.

 

[OxfordTheCat]

There's a popular idea that gets floated around from time to time here and on other hunting Internet sites. The basic idea is that for deer or antelope, there is a space below the spine and above the vitals where an animal can be shot without causing significant damage. I've wandered around enough animal carcasses to know that no such space exists! I'm not a thoracic trauma surgeon or neurosurgeon, but I am a surgeon and have spent many fine hours working on the spine. I know a thing or two about terminal ballistics and what brings about the demise of an animal.

Curious if you have any opinions on the impact of a shot that hits over the spine, but clips the spinous processes.

Incapacitating for an animal? Is enough energy transfered down to the vertebrae to pinch or sever the spinal cord?

 

[coreydb]

I for one, am glad for these bisections. For averaged hunters like me, this just reinforces the value of double lung/heart shots.

 

[Sabre]

Curious if you have any opinions on the impact of a shot that hits over the spine, but clips the spinous processes.

Incapacitating for an animal? Is enough energy transfered down to the vertebrae to pinch or sever the spinal cord?

The most common thing to happen is that the animal drops immediately, stunned from the shot.

Many hunters and some guides will then begin celebrating.

The hunters are usually shocked when the animal then gets up and runs away and is never found again.

 

[OxfordTheCat]

The most common thing to happen is that the animal drops immediately, stunned from the shot.

Many hunters and some guides will then begin celebrating.

The hunters are usually shocked when the animal then gets up and runs away and is never found again.

I meant more if he had any conclusions about it: A shot 'in the area' stuns, and the animal recovers and bolts, but a shot which hits the processes is enough to sever the spinal cord and anchor the animal.

I don't know enough about spinal injuries, or neck shots I suppose.

 

[MS 9x56]

Curious if you have any opinions on the impact of a shot that hits over the spine, but clips the spinous processes.

Incapacitating for an animal? Is enough energy transfered down to the vertebrae to pinch or sever the spinal cord?

Real world experience, no it is not incapacitating. I was lucky I was able to get a second shot into him to finish the job. Extreme downhill shot bullet broke off the bone projecting upward. It did keep him down long enough for me to get closer for the next shot.

 

[Sabre]

I meant more if he had any conclusions about it: A shot 'in the area' stuns, and the animal recovers and bolts, but a shot which hits the processes is enough to sever the spinal cord and anchor the animal.

I don't know enough about spinal injuries, or neck shots I suppose.

The real world implications are going to vary a bit on each shot. The same is true for humans with injuries to the spinal column. It is possible to have traumatic injuries that break the bone, but do not sever the spinal cord. And it is possible to have less dramatic injuries that do sever or damage the spinal cord.

Directly speaking about shooting deer or other critters in those areas. Yes, it is possible to hit the spinal processes and cause a traumatic injury to the spinal cord which anchors the animal. It is not a rare occurrence, because of the devastating cavitation that occurs from firearms. However, the most common thing to happen is that it shocks their system without severing the spinal cord and they drop immediately, thrash a bit, look like they are dying, and then recover after a minute or so and get up and run away.

 

[BryceM]

Curious if you have any opinions on the impact of a shot that hits over the spine, but clips the spinous processes.

Incapacitating for an animal? Is enough energy transfered down to the vertebrae to pinch or sever the spinal cord?

It depends.

I have some feel for people respond to bullets in this area, but most of what I’ve seen comes from low-velocity handgun rounds. With a rifle, everything changes.

A lower velocity bullet that doesn’t expand much will probably just do soft tissue damage and break a chunk off of the spinous process. An animal hit like that will probably just run off and go many, many miles. A hit in the spinous process will almost never cause disruption or “pinching” of the cord. To sever the cord, the bullet, or at the very least a large bone fragment, will need to pass directly through it. The cord is quite well protected by surrounding bone.

A high-velocity, expanding bullet will often cause enough of a “shock wave” that it will concuss the cord, causing it to go off-line for a bit. An animal hit like that will sometimes stay down, but will sometimes recover and go scampering off.

Of course, a bullet on this trajectory will also do tremendous damage to the paraspinal muscles (back straps). This sort of wound won’t be fatal any time soon, and won’t immediately incapacitate the animal, but will certainly have a high chance of infection, disability, and/or eventual death.

 

[dailordasailor]

There was a beautiful 6x6 elk in arizona that took 2 300wm bullets from me in "no mans land". A week later he was back on camera in same area. He was killed following season healthy as ever. He dropped on the shot, we celebrated, he stood up, dropped on 2nd shot again, stood up third time and was gone.

 

[Nhoro]

Always practise reloading and being ready for a second shot. If it drops to the shot, it may leap up and run. If it runs strongly I may also need a second. Always good practise to be ready.
I also think we have an expectation built on lung shots. On lungs, tissue is softer and has more blood vessels so damage is big. It may run a little but soon gets wobbly.If you hit muscle and a little bone high above the spine, bleeding is less, smaller wound channel. That animal can move with little trouble. The speed they move at is unexpected. As everyone says, the magical space is simply poor shot placement.

 

[steve white]

There was a beautiful 6x6 elk in arizona that took 2 300wm bullets from me in "no mans land". A week later he was back on camera in same area. He was killed following season healthy as ever. He dropped on the shot, we celebrated, he stood up, dropped on 2nd shot again, stood up third time and was gone.

Well ok, if you can admit that then I can tell about something not even my family knows about. I shot a deer near the gate on a ranch on the way out. It shocked the spinal process evidently because I drove over, swung it into the trunk of a car I was driving, and then stopped to take a leak. Before I finished, the darn deer got out of the car trunk, over the fence and gone. (embarrassing) I was barely out of school at the time....still would have never lived it down had I told about it.

 

[Sabre]

Well ok, if you can admit that then I can tell about something not even my family knows about. I shot a deer near the gate on a ranch on the way out. It shocked the spinal process evidently because I drove over, swung it into the trunk of a car I was driving, and then stopped to take a leak. Before I finished, the darn deer got out of the car trunk, over the fence and gone. (embarrassing) I was barely out of school at the time....still would have never lived it down had I told about it.

If my friend or family had that happen to them, I sure would hope they would tell me about it.

I feel like I remember someone else on here having a similar story about a warthog in Africa coming back to life in the back of the truck back at camp.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

There was a gent in our camp back in May that had hit a Buffalo high, getting high doubke lungs but not breaking him down. They found and finished him 4 days later and supposedly not all that much worse for wear. Granted this was told over a campfire, but the buff was described as still overly spirited and requiring another several shots to anchor and finish.

My ph for the trip said he’d seen more than one buffalo that had really high lung shots actually recover, fully, and keep on living life normally. He said a lower shot into the lungs would typically keep bleeding and prove fatal, but high lung not necessarily. Again, maybe campfire talk.

I personally have seen bears, both black and brown, go from stone dead to a dead run within seconds and never to be found. Super sad. For bears, especially brown/grizzlies, if you shoot one and it stone cold drops, shoot it again and quickly. A sudden drop is something where the shot caused a CNS interruption. And unless squarely through their small brain, likely temporary. If you hit high lung, often close enough to the spine to cause a total reset collapse. But within 5-30 seconds, wakes and takes off. They have such slow heart rate, low blood pressure, and body fat to seal off wound channels, that a high lung shots even close to that void area means a long track and most likely a lost animal.

That void is a real thing for some animals. If it collapses, just poke another hole through the vitals to be safe. Owe it to yourself, your PH, your family and the animal. Just play it safe and poke holes.

 

[Longwalker]

I do believe stories of animals that recovered from a high lung shot or a shot above the spine itself. However, a “void” under the backbone and above the lungs is anatomically impossible. Does not exist in any species.

 

[CEO]

These pictures are from my personal trail camera. They are from the 2022 season. Looks like the deer jumped the string a bit would be my guess. This Buck was finally killed this past season by the same hunter who put the arrow in it

View attachment 666972View attachment 666973View attachment 666974View attachment 666975

The last deer my Grandfather shot was a barely legal (for our area) 8 point with his 30-30. Shot the buck in almost the exact same spot this arrow is sitting. Deer dropped in his tracks and Grandpa kept his seat because it was cold and drizzling if I remember correctly. Said about ten minutes later the buck jumps up and takes off. Him and my Dad look for a while but find no sign to track.

I ribbed him a little thinking he may have missed, but after looking at the trail camera his whole story checked out. Although he was asleep shortly before this when two bigger bucks were in front of him. We figure the deer ran off and died, but a few weeks later he shows back up with what looks like a scar a few inches below his spine. He absolutely blew up the next year and was the biggest buck we got a picture of. He was still alive a few years later when we changed properties.

 

[Cowboybart]

I had a frontal shot on a pronghorn a few years back. I had been at the ready for 12-15 minutes and the animal never turned broadside. I took the shot, 25-06, 117gr SST, 303 yards. The bullet went in a little high between the shoulder muscles. Traveled the entire length and exited just below the tail. I waited 10 minutes and the pronghorn refused to die. When it started to get up, I was in no mood to chase, so I put another one in the neck - lights out. When I skinned it out I traced the bullet path the best I could and missed every vital organ in it. The exit wound was as big as my fist, so the chances of survival were slim, but still - I missed everything.

 

[impact14]

I haven't read all of the comments yet, but stopped in to say OP you are 100% correct. I own and work wounded game recovery dogs and am very good friends with the other top handlers in the state. Probably 300-400 whitetail deer recovered yearly by the group I'm referencing. Nobody knows everything, but there is a ridiculous amount of cumulative knowledge (from experience, many carcasses dissected, recovered deer, no recoveries, and follow up trail camera photos) amongst these fellas.

When I take young'uns on their first deer hunts, the rule is, inarguably, if it drops in its track it DOES get shot again. I've seen, heard, and attempted to track toooo many of these nightmares where the hunter or hunting party goes to celebrate, looks back downrange, and their trophy is gone. Some instances even have the deer jumping up some small number of minutes later and leaving the county only to be eating feed at the next guys stand that very night.

Trail cameras have revolutionized the space and given us SO much more post track information now than we've ever had before, and good dogs don't miss a mortally wounded deer often at all. Staggeringly infrequently, to be fair.

I despise the term "no mans land" not for what it means but for what most people perceive it as. Above the lungs but below the spine is certainly not the scenario in 99.99% of use cases regarding the term. People are shooting these deer thru the backstrap and not wanting to admit how bad they missed.

Thanks for coming to me TED talk, lol, I'm passionate about this!