Sako 9.3x62 Groups - Thoughts?

[Reg26]

These shot groups are from a new (by total rounds fired) Sako M85 Deluxe 9.3x62. Today I put rounds 14-38 through her. She definitely likes 286 grain loads over 250 grain Nosler Accubonds (factory loads). I'm hoping to take this rifle with me next May on my first safari in Namibia.

The groups pictured here are with 286 grain Swift A-frames (also factory loads). I am very pleased with the grouping of shots 2-4 of these four shot groups but the first, cold shot is always offset, and once it was in the complete opposite direction (right vs left). I let the barrel cool at least 5-10 minutes between groups and I use a fan that its in the action and blows cool air down the barrel, so each first shot is from a "cool" barrel. The barrel is completely and well free floated as best I can tell. These are at 100 yards.

What say you? Normal cold to hot barrel shift? Residual stress in the barrel? Shooter error/first shot flinch? Something else?

 

[375Fox]

I have 3 Sako 85s in 270 win, 300 win, 375 H&H. All are extremely accurate. I’ve never seen any significant difference first shot to next shots. I’d have someone else shoot the rifle to see the groups they shoot. My first thought would be the shooter since it prints expected groups after the first shot. With my 300 and 375 I do need to regularly tighten the action screws because they come loose with recoil, but I don’t think that is case here since you are shooting repeatable groups.

EDIT: I just realized those are all the same ammo. Check the action screws with the Allen wrench provided. That is exactly what my rifle does when action screws start to get loose, minus the first shot being off.

 

[shootist~]

New barrel and factory ammo. Shooter not used to the new rifle also a possible - and @375Fox mention on the action screws is worthy.

Do you dry-fire a few times before starting a group? Pretty important step in taking the shooter out of the picture, (to my accuracy testing anyway).

You are getting a mean radius of about 1.5 inches from POA if correctly zeroed, so it's at least acceptable, IMO. If you can get to that level from the sticks it would be absolutely good to go.

I suggest you get off the bench, get beyond a break-in level on the round count and then go back and see where you are. Keep your round count per range session low by swapping out with other rifles. Maybe just shoot 3 shot groups and let the barrel cool longer as well.

 

[mark-hunter]

What say you? Normal cold to hot barrel shift? Residual stress in the barrel? Shooter error/first shot flinch? Something else?

On all my rifles, I had first shot flier (Sako 85 included).
It made me crazy!

Then I changed the way of drying the barrel from oil before use, because all my barrels stay oiled in the locker.
Till thenm I was drying the barrel before with normal patch.
Then, I guessed, I was not doing it thoroughly. Maybe some oil remained???

So, next, after passing a dry patch, I would drop a bit of brake cleaner spray to the barrel., dried again with dry patch.
Then went for range.
With that procedure I had no more issues with first shot flier. All went to zero!

So, in my case was insufficiently dried barrel, some oil residue left inside causing first shot flier.

 

[IvW]

Try a fouling shot....a cleaned and lightly oiled barrel will often have the first shot go low left ir right.....

 

[Reg26]

Agree, and I would not have been shocked if I had just seen that on the first group. But these examples are all from the same session, so I would have had three group very well, cool down, then one flier followed by another good three shot grouping. I think in this case all the oil would have been shot out, no? Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Reg26]

New barrel and factory ammo. Shooter not used to the new rifle also a possible - and @375Fox mention on the action screws is worthy.

Do you dry-fire a few times before starting a group? Pretty important step in taking the shooter out of the picture, (to my accuracy testing anyway).

You are getting a mean radius of about 1.5 inches from POA if correctly zeroed, so it's at least acceptable, IMO. If you can get to that level from the sticks it would be absolutely good to go.

I suggest you get off the bench, get beyond a break-in level on the round count and then go back and see where you are. Keep your round count per range session low by swapping out with other rifles. Maybe just shoot 3 shot groups and let the barrel cool longer as well.

No, I didn't dry fire before starting the groups. I will do that going forward.

Yes, I need to get out to a longer range that will allow use of sticks. I'll do that some this month. Unfortunately that range is almost 2 hours away vice 20 minutes like the 100 yard bench rest range.

 

[wesheltonj]

85’s did not leave the factory, without test firing using SAKO ammo for their accuracy guarantee. Might try some SAKO ammunition and see if the problem go way or operator error.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

It sure wants to shoot. I always carry a check gun to the range. That is one that has a long history of consistent accuracy. I will use it to check if I am at fault.

Things I have seen that have caused similar issues:
Oily barrel
Bedding issue
Scope is in a bind
Loose action screws

Safe shooting

 

[Puddle]

Can also be from overcleaning. Are you cleaning to remove all powder and copper residue and getting to 'bare' metal between shooting sessions?

 

[375Fox]

What did the original groups look like? Shots 1-13?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

These shot groups are from a new (by total rounds fired) Sako M85 Deluxe 9.3x62. Today I put rounds 14-38 through her. She definitely likes 286 grain loads over 250 grain Nosler Accubonds (factory loads). I'm hoping to take this rifle with me next May on my first safari in Namibia.

The groups pictured here are with 286 grain Swift A-frames (also factory loads). I am very pleased with the grouping of shots 2-4 of these four shot groups but the first, cold shot is always offset, and once it was in the complete opposite direction (right vs left). I let the barrel cool at least 5-10 minutes between groups and I use a fan that its in the action and blows cool air down the barrel, so each first shot is from a "cool" barrel. The barrel is completely and well free floated as best I can tell. These are at 100 yards.

What say you? Normal cold to hot barrel shift? Residual stress in the barrel? Shooter error/first shot flinch? Something else?

@Reg26
If all else fails try a good glass bedding job. That usually helps.
Bob

 

[R eight]

I’ve owned several Sako 75’s and 85’s over the years. Most, but not all, shot very well out of the box.

The exceptions were both 75’s in stainless/synthetic configurations. The rifle in 308 Winchester did exactly what your rifle does. First shot out of a cold barrel would land some 2 inches above the rest of the group at 100 yards. It drove me crazy. Had a bedding job done…no difference. Had other people shoot it …..no difference. Shot it with a dirty barrel…no difference.
However, the rifle did come good after this……I took it to the range and fired off about 100 rounds in pretty quick order. Heated it up so much that she was almost too hot to hold. That solved what to do with a bunch of leftover rounds and …. surprisingly from that session on no more cold barrel flier.

The other rifle was in 30/06. No matter what ammunition it was at best a 2 MOA rifle. Bedding job done….no difference. Even Sierra 180 grain match kings wouldn’t shoot in her. Mates couldn’t shoot in any better than me.

Then after about the 800 rounds count she came good. So much so that I don’t know why I sold her.

I’ve owned a 75 deluxe in 9.3 x62 …. One of the most accurate rifles I’ve ever owned. My son also owns a 85 in 9.3 x62 , it’s also a beautiful rifle.

Good luck getting yours sorted.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I'd be curious to see what the muzzle does when the shooter thinks it's a live shot but it isn't. My money is on movement.

 

[saswart]

To be honest, I think most of these issue are psychological I hear and read a lot about the "first cool barrel shot vs the rest" exactly as in this case with a 2 inch difference. Then I read most people zero their rifle using the group 2-5. However, the next day or week if they hunt, they take miraculous 250 yard head shot, guess what with the 2 inch off cold barrel... My take on it is (except I do note the discussion on the oily first shot of a cleaned rifle) is that most people tend to think to much about the first shot, they anticipate it will be off by an inch or two. Then this anticipation goes into the shot, and you relax for the rest wanting to show shot 1, cool barrel is off.

There is enough proof that a cold barrel first shot does not differ, you hunt with it, professional shooters all have a first shot, sniper, testing done by manufacturers etc.

I would say, relax, maybe shoot something else dryfire and don't expect shot 1 to be different after you have checked all the screws etc.

 

[Forrest Halley]

To be honest, I think most of these issue are psychological I hear and read a lot about the "first cool barrel shot vs the rest" exactly as in this case with a 2 inch difference. Then I read most people zero their rifle using the group 2-5. However, the next day or week if they hunt, they take miraculous 250 yard head shot, guess what with the 2 inch off cold barrel... My take on it is (except I do note the discussion on the oily first shot of a cleaned rifle) is that most people tend to think to much about the first shot, they anticipate it will be off by an inch or two. Then this anticipation goes into the shot, and you relax for the rest wanting to show shot 1, cool barrel is off.

There is enough proof that a cold barrel first shot does not differ, you hunt with it, professional shooters all have a first shot, sniper, testing done by manufacturers etc.

I would say, relax, maybe shoot something else dryfire and don't expect shot 1 to be different after you have checked all the screws etc.

Either this or their pussy cat of a rifle that's somewhat larger than their uncle's two-four-three(@Bob Nelson 35Whelen 's favorite do all caliber), actually recoils, it isn't pleasant at all, and knocks the...the glory out of the experience...which then must be...ahem...explained somehow.

Ask yourself a question:
When you get punched in the face do you smile and say well then game on or are you taken aback? Therein lies a bit of insight to your recoil tolerance.

There is actually quite a bit of accomplishment in properly managing the recoil of a .30-06 and producing acceptable groups. Nothing wrong with this at all, however when we step above this we're actually becoming exceptional IF.... we can still turn in accurate results.

 

[Hogpatrol]

My 2¢, Shots 2,3,& 4 are NOT from a cold barrel. Depending on ambient, five to ten minutes may not be enough time. My experience with the fans, especially the ones that fit in the action, is they're a waste of money. My m.o., remove the bolt, stand the rifle in the rack and wait a half hour between shots.

 

[Reg26]

My 2¢, Shots 2,3,& 4 are NOT from a cold barrel. Depending on ambient, five to ten minutes may not be enough time. My experience with the fans, especially the ones that fit in the action, is they're a waste of money. My m.o., remove the bolt, stand the rifle in the rack and wait a half hour between shots.

They definitely aren’t from a cold barrel. They were shot in a four shot group with less than a minute between shots. Only the first shot of each group was “cold” shot.

 

[mark-hunter]

To be honest, I think most of these issue are psychologicaI

I made first comment on this topic, about first shot on oily barrel, and how I solved the issue by using the brake cleaner spray.

Besides being a hunter, I am also target shooter.
My idea of accuracy is sub moa. But, I tolerate 1 moa in hunting rifle.
So, first flier was annoying to me. (2 moa off! or even more!)

So, before I came to "brake cleaner procedure" i had to deal with first shot flier anyway I could imagine.

So, before I found out break cleaner, I went on the range, I grinned my teeth after first shot, and got a good groups with following shots.

If necessary I would rezero the scope.

I did not clean the rifle later, but quick pass through with patch is still ok.

After that, there was no difference between cold bore shot, or warm bore shot later.
If the rifle would be for hunting, I woldnt touch (clean) anything during hunting season.
If the rifle was for competition, I wouldnt clean it till after the competition.

There is also one more occasion when I would get fliers.
Not exactly the fliers but more like shotgun pattern!
This was after thorough cleaning the barrel with copper solvent.
The rifle would disperse the shots all over the target!

This situation would require fouling shots, anything between 5 to 25 or more, depending which rifle I was using.
After the barrel would settle down following the fouling shots, it was still usable and accurate as always.

First time I experienced this, this caused the panic in me!!!! (I destroyed the barrel!!!) but after fouling shots, all went well.

 

[R eight]

From my experience with a very similar issue. I’d try this.

Shoot your first group of the day from a dirty barrel. If problem is gone. You have your answer.

If problem still exists. Pump a few boxes of cheap ammunition through it real quick. Heat her up until she’s too hot to handle.

After a considerable period, preferably next day. From a stone cold barrel. Try for a group again. Hopefully, fingers crossed, you get a similar result to me…problem is gone.

If problems still exist……sell rifle. A hunting rifle that throws a first shot wide is, for me, useless.

Good luck.