The Quality of American Firearms...

[WAB]

I’ll take the current production Winchester M-70 over any other currently manufactured rifle, foreign or domestic up to 2 or 3x the cost of he Winchester.

 

[WAB]

I should mention that I am a big fan of the CZ but IMO they need some work before I would hunt with one. A Super Grade M-70 is ready to go out of the box at $1,400.

 

[cmk]

In the respect of firearms manufacture the Americans are ahead of us Europeans. But not in a good way.

The fact that the US is ONE country, with a long tradition of firearms ownership and a bit of pioneer spirit is probably a good part of the explanation; i.e. more of a single (legal/language/culture) market where rugged=good. This has led to mass manufacturing at an attractive price point. Nothing strange at all, really.

As has been mentioned, in a lot of the European countries gun ownership more of a hassle, there are limits on the numbers and types of guns you can own, and in some countries - hunting is seen as a bit aristocratic. But even if the average European hunter has fewer guns, and trades them less often, we're definitely seeing the same thing happening here - we're just a few decades behind. There have been a lot of mergers/takeovers in the business - Beretta/Sako/Tikka/Benelli is one, and Blaser/Mauser/Sauer is another. And the same can be seen on the ammuniton-side as well. Ruag owns both Norma, Rottweil, Geco and RWS.

There are virtually NO entry-level guns with walnut stocks - not Tikka, not Sako, not Mauser. It is not just the current trend, it is because plastic is cheaper. You can get wooden stock, but it will cost you extra. And the wood will be rather plain, unless you pay even more. Handcut checkering? more money.

The production of a new gun today does not involve all that much craftmanship, and that is perhaps a bit ... soulless. But they will probably still be as accurate as anything else. Or be made so with a little tuning. That will cost a little extra.

It is a bit like flying, actually. When was the last time you were sitting in a comfortable seat, being served your in-flight meal on a real plate, with real cutlery? And would you still be prepared to pay (in today's money) for that service - i.e. flying business/first class. Some things actually were better in the past

I have a few Sakos, mainly from the mid-80's, and with one exception, they were the entry level models at the time. I would not trade them for a newer version, even if it was free of charge.

 

[sierraone]

CMK, I agree with you completely. I am a U.S. citizen but have traveled over much of Europe on many occasions. If I were wealthy, I would own many English, German and French guns and rifles. And they would all have hi end walnut that was hand checkered. Though I do own a couple of the previously mentioned guns, I do not own any plastic, stainless or cerakote American rifles and shotguns. As you said, they have no soul, whether they have the Mauser or Winchester name. All my guns now and in the future will have walnut and blue! If I did ever own Mausers, Westleys and Verney Carron, I would still keep a few Rugers and Winchesters around because some of them are nice enough to be held in the company of the Brits and Europeans!

 

[JPbowhunter]

I think those that are avid hunters will have a few higher end rifles.

I dunno if I'd agree with that. I'd consider myself an avid hunter moreso than most, spending at least one hunt every two weeks from late jan to early September with a couple of one week chunks in there too and my hunting is all done with very modest rifles.
Conversely i know a guy with a gun safe worth probably $70k who only does one or two guided hunts a year.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

I’ll take the current production Winchester M-70 over any other currently manufactured rifle, foreign or domestic up to 2 or 3x the cost of he Winchester.

I should mention that I am a big fan of the CZ but IMO they need some work before I would hunt with one. A Super Grade M-70 is ready to go out of the box at $1,400.

Completely agree with @WAB

I just took delivery of a NIB Win Mod 70 Super Grade in 7x57 and couldn't agree with you more. Beautiful wood grained stock, a red Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad, inletted swivels, smooth action, crisp trigger, although a bit heavy. This is the second Super Grade I've purchased, the other being on in 300 RUM and that one is being converted to a 404 Jeff.

 

[CTDolan]

Modern production methods allow for such quality at such a cost. Instead of a man at a bench you’ve got parts set in a jig, cut by a CNC. Same goes for the stock (including checkering).

Coincidentally, that’s also why we’ve some of the disparity which exists in this day, but that’s another subject for another time.

 

[rookhawk]

Completely agree with @WAB

I just took delivery of a NIB Win Mod 70 Super Grade in 7x57 and couldn't agree with you more. Beautiful wood grained stock, a red Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad, inletted swivels, smooth action, crisp trigger, although a bit heavy. This is the second Super Grade I've purchased, the other being on in 300 RUM and that one is being converted to a 404 Jeff.

It's an extraordinary piece of mass-manufactured firearm you have there. To do "right" by that gun, it deserved an oil finish and hand checkering along with some additional detail to the blueing. Glass bedding the action would be best-gun justice also. That would make it comparable to a pre-64 all the way around. The question is, would you pay $1200 more for the gun to be finished to the higher level of fit and finish? The average consumer says no, so we get a beautiful gun with some finish shortcuts. I wish the answer was "yes" because I see what that gun could have been with an additional $1200 of MSRP on the price. (not disparaging what it is, just lamenting what it could have been as all the right stuff is there, it just wasn't finished by hand with final detail that piece of wood and awesome action truly deserved)

 

[tarbe]

Win Mod 70 Super Grade in 7x57

Dang, that’s nice!

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

It's an extraordinary piece of mass-manufactured firearm you have there. To do "right" by that gun, it deserved an oil finish and hand checkering along with some additional detail to the blueing. Glass bedding the action would be best-gun justice also. That would make it comparable to a pre-64 all the way around. The question is, would you pay $1200 more for the gun to be finished to the higher level of fit and finish? The average consumer says no, so we get a beautiful gun with some finish shortcuts. I wish the answer was "yes" because I see what that gun could have been with an additional $1200 of MSRP on the price. (not disparaging what it is, just lamenting what it could have been as all the right stuff is there, it just wasn't finished by hand with final detail that piece of wood and awesome action truly deserved)

@rookhawk : Maybe one day when I'm retired and have the time, I might work on the stock a bit. For now, I am going to slap a scope on it and go shoot a bunch of different flavors of ammo and see what it will do. I'd love to do an oil finish, but I am not into a bunch of checkering.

 

[tarbe]

It's an extraordinary piece of mass-manufactured firearm you have there. To do "right" by that gun, it deserved an oil finish and hand checkering along with some additional detail to the blueing. Glass bedding the action would be best-gun justice also. That would make it comparable to a pre-64 all the way around. The question is, would you pay $1200 more for the gun to be finished to the higher level of fit and finish? The average consumer says no, so we get a beautiful gun with some finish shortcuts. I wish the answer was "yes" because I see what that gun could have been with an additional $1200 of MSRP on the price. (not disparaging what it is, just lamenting what it could have been as all the right stuff is there, it just wasn't finished by hand with final detail that piece of wood and awesome action truly deserved)

I am glad all those extras are "on the side".

That way, a fellow who wants to spend $1,200 can have one, and the fellow who wants the $2,400 model can have it, too.

Otherwise, the $1,200 fellow is still shopping.

 

[rookhawk]

I am glad all those extras are "on the side".

That way, a fellow who wants to spend $1,200 can have one, and the fellow who wants the $2,400 model can have it, too.

Otherwise, the $1,200 fellow is still shopping.

One flaw with that point... the challenge is the know-how to do the "additional $1200" in work is a dying breed. All the Winchester pre-64 guys are dead. There are a handful of guys at Dakota that can cut checkering and do an oil finish. Certainly the custom one-off rifle builders can do one too.

How many "high grade" production guns are there left in the world where you can buy a hand finished gun? Anschutz maybe is hand checkered and oil finished? Mauser maybe? Blaser?

Not CZ. Not Winchester. Not FN. Not Remington. Not weatherby.

This is the same lament the Colt revolver guys say. Once they went mass production and got rid of hand checkered grips and hand polished bluing and metal prep, it was a one-way street. Really hard to insource that skilled labor again once mechanized.

I'm not ripping on the guns like the fine gentleman's nice, well made Winchester 70 Classic pictured above (or a ruger #1, another beautiful mass-manufactured gun), just lamenting the fact that by seeking economics they have lost the capabilities to build a higher quality gun, because its not a big enough marketshare to make a better finished gun. (e.g. a deluxe grade)

 

[JPbowhunter]

One flaw with that point... the challenge is the know-how to do the "additional $1200" in work is a dying breed. All the Winchester pre-64 guys are dead. There are a handful of guys at Dakota that can cut checkering and do an oil finish. Certainly the custom one-off rifle builders can do one too.

How many "high grade" production guns are there left in the world where you can buy a hand finished gun? Anschutz maybe is hand checkered and oil finished? Mauser maybe? Blaser?

Not CZ. Not Winchester. Not FN. Not Remington. Not weatherby.

This is the same lament the Colt revolver guys say. Once they went mass production and got rid of hand checkered grips and hand polished bluing and metal prep, it was a one-way street. Really hard to insource that skilled labor again once mechanized.

I'm not ripping on the guns like the fine gentleman's nice, well made Winchester 70 Classic pictured above (or a ruger #1, another beautiful mass-manufactured gun), just lamenting the fact that by seeking economics they have lost the capabilities to build a higher quality gun, because its not a big enough marketshare to make a better finished gun. (e.g. a deluxe grade)

I think schultz and larsen might be but dont quote me on that.

 

[tarbe]

One flaw with that point... the challenge is the know-how to do the "additional $1200" in work is a dying breed.

Really?

Then who is going to do it at the "factory"?

 

[Hogpatrol]

Cooper, I've never handled or shot one but they look like a decent rifle.
http://cooperfirearms.com/custom-shop
http://cooperfirearms.com/jackson-game

 

[cmk]

Really?

Then who is going to do it at the "factory"?

 

[WAB]

It's an extraordinary piece of mass-manufactured firearm you have there. To do "right" by that gun, it deserved an oil finish and hand checkering along with some additional detail to the blueing. Glass bedding the action would be best-gun justice also. That would make it comparable to a pre-64 all the way around. The question is, would you pay $1200 more for the gun to be finished to the higher level of fit and finish? The average consumer says no, so we get a beautiful gun with some finish shortcuts. I wish the answer was "yes" because I see what that gun could have been with an additional $1200 of MSRP on the price. (not disparaging what it is, just lamenting what it could have been as all the right stuff is there, it just wasn't finished by hand with final detail that piece of wood and awesome action truly deserved)

Well, I have the identical gun. I’ve had the furniture engraved by a friend who does much of Rigby’s work and then case hardened. I had the stock oil finished, and a banded front sight installed. I have a peep sight that fits into the QD bases. It is a thing of beauty and shoots incredibly well. I really enjoy it with the peep sight. So I guess the answer is yes, I would pay more, I’m just not sure that enough folks would to justify it.

 

[WAB]

Really?

Then who is going to do it at the "factory"?

Leroy Barry, Canyon Creek Custom Gunstocks. First class wood and metal work.

 

[cmk]

Hmm, I was too slow to correct my previous post with just tarbe's quote... here is what I intended to write.

Really?

Then who is going to do it at the "factory"?

Well, I guess that is what I'm fearing is that this is a race to the bottom. The entry-level rifles from manufacturers will get even simpler/cheaper to produce, and there will be fewer and fewer people around with the know-how of how to build/fit/finish a rifle by hand.

Since there is better profit to be had by selling the customer a new rifle with new 'features' every 2 years, rather than building a quality product that will last a lifetime, the manufacturers will continue to push for this development.

That is why people buy a new fridge after 7 years, a new smart phone every year, a new coffe machine every 5 years, a new TV every 2 years etc. Stuff is built to break after a while. And marketing drives us to buy a new version of the same crap that just broke. I can't recall seeing a TV-repair shop in quite some time...

A few years ago when the dishwasher needed some new part due a product recall, the repair guy that came to our house to replace that part, actually wondered why we had it serviced instead of buying a new one. It was 5-6 years old at the time, and has been running fine for almost as long since then. Perhaps he didn't like his job...

Don't see this a rant against your favourite not-so-costly gun, but as an observation on down which road we're traveling in a broader sense. I have mostly entry level guns myself. But they were made a generation ago, and quality was better then.

 

[markferrigno]

One flaw with that point... the challenge is the know-how to do the "additional $1200" in work is a dying breed. All the Winchester pre-64 guys are dead. There are a handful of guys at Dakota that can cut checkering and do an oil finish. Certainly the custom one-off rifle builders can do one too.

How many "high grade" production guns are there left in the world where you can buy a hand finished gun? Anschutz maybe is hand checkered and oil finished? Mauser maybe? Blaser?

Not CZ. Not Winchester. Not FN. Not Remington. Not weatherby.

This is the same lament the Colt revolver guys say. Once they went mass production and got rid of hand checkered grips and hand polished bluing and metal prep, it was a one-way street. Really hard to insource that skilled labor again once mechanized.

I'm not ripping on the guns like the fine gentleman's nice, well made Winchester 70 Classic pictured above (or a ruger #1, another beautiful mass-manufactured gun), just lamenting the fact that by seeking economics they have lost the capabilities to build a higher quality gun, because its not a big enough marketshare to make a better finished gun. (e.g. a deluxe grade)

Heym.

I have been to the factory many times, they hand finish every single firearm. The barrels are still straitened by hand. The stocks are finished and checked by hand. Are they cheap? No but the SR-21/30 can be had for decent prices, esp. on the used market. I was lucky I lived in Germany and bought my rifles at what would be considered a steal here in the US. My SR30 in .308 andSR-21 in 9.3x62 shoot with such accuracy that they firearms are far more accurate than I am.

I wish they would focus on their bolt actions here in the US instead on the expensive doubles. The bolt actions are incredible firearms........