Politics

[HWL]

@HWL, i’ve been your country several times and have great respect for the German people. However, Germany is not meeting her commitments to NATO and (a totally separate issue) your country is being sacrificed to the alter of political correctness and progressivism. In two decades there will not be in Germany as you know it.

Thanks for your assessment.

I am absolutely with you, that Germany will not be the same in two decades.

But I trust in my country, it will be better than ever before.

At the end of WWII, America was strong and sourrounded by friends, today they are sourrounded by enemys, Donald Trump named them.

At the end of WWII, Germany was destroyed and sourrounded by enemys.... and they wanted Germany weak.

Do you have any idea, why the situation is as it is today?

Please keep in mind, whenever Germans do something, they try to do it better than anyone else.

This does not work always, but Germany always is suspicious, it could.

Whenever Germans went to war, the world hold breath.

After WWII, Germany tried "peace", and it turned out, it works even much better than "war".

Today, Germany is sourrounded by friends and THEY WANT GERMANY STRONG!!!

Never in history, the situation was like this.

Why to hell, Germany should follow the advice from the only enemy that is is left over?

The only enemy Germany has today, are the United States of America, declared by Donald Trump.

But this is not a situation, Germany is responsible for.

Germany always wanted to have the friendship of the United States, AND STILL WANTS.

But they spy us, they fight our economy, they treat us as enemys.

Should someday America retreat its troops from Europe, I guarantee, there will be a great after show party and an even stronger Germany.

Americas has a list of enemys, they also should have a list of lost allys.


HWL

 

[Dr Ray]

Rifles from Europe or USA will shot better if it weren’t for the human factor! The rifle would shoot acceptable groups but we the shooter will be the “culprit”!!!
Just a coffee before going out to have a shot will “up” the blood pressure (ever so slightly) but this will have an effect on the shooting.
Which are better made?
Personally I’d say the like cars, they are made for a generic shooter. Some like white cars sone like black.
So it’s purely a matter of personal choice, budget, preferences, and so forth.

 

[Royal27]

The only enemy Germany has today, are the United States of America, declared by Donald Trump.

You keep repeating this without any fact to back it up. I will ask a third and final time that you provide the quote where Trump called Germany an enemy. I don't expect you to be able to provide it, or you would already have done so. This tells me you are making it up to help prove your point, which doesn't seem to stand on facts alone. This tact ends up taking away your credibility. It makes anything else you say on this subject questionable, at best.

. Yes, I know that you're angry that Trump wants equal and fair trade, doesn't want to continue to subsidize Germany, and expects Germany to live up to it's NATO obligations. If those things make America an enemy in your opinion then that it your opinion, but it isn't fact, far from it.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Thanks for your assessment.

I am absolutely with you, that Germany will not be the same in two decades.

But I trust in my country, it will be better than ever before.

With a few hundred thousand muslims low lifes from the middle east, yeah, you'll be alot better.


Please keep in mind, whenever Germans do something, they try to do it better than anyone else.

They did an excellent job cheating on the emissions software for their Volkswagens but hey, what are "friends" for?

Whenever Germans went to war, the world hold breath.

Actually the world was shaking it's head. You got your ass kicked in the first world war and then started another twenty years later.




HWL

 

[JPbowhunter]

I had to double check to see I was looking at the right thread, i thought we were talking about guns.

 

[Red Leg]

NATO exists because it was in the national interests of the United States and the United Kingdom to form an alliance to halt the further spread of both overt Soviet military might and the radical socialist revolutionary movements the Soviet Union was attempting to ignite in Western Europe. As West Germany regained its footing as a truly independent state again following the war, membership in the alliance became a shared national interest for Bonn as well.

The collapse of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact inevitably has called into question the necessity for NATO as well. I personally, and a great number of other "internationalists" on both sides of the Atlantic, feel the alliance has a strong role yet to play. For instance, it forms a mechanism for the West to act unilaterally in its collective interests outside the Third World and Sino/Russian dominated malaise of the United Nations. That cooperative effort was probably best demonstrated in resolving the turmoil following the collapse of Yugoslavia. Shared Western interests, particularly in the face of what I believe is a still emerging Islamic tidal wave, will continue, I hope, to insure that Germany and the United States remain firm allies. I am worried but hopeful, that Western Europe will wake-up from its Imperial and Fascist guilt driven refugee policy in time to prevent, what I believe, is a very real immigration driven threat to its fundamental culture.

It has also proven a useful mechanism to help keep Americans from retreating inside an instinctive, reflexive isolationist shell that frankly has no longer been tenable since the Spanish American War. The exact figures are open to some debate, but at least 65% of our GDP is tied to international commerce. Many analysts would put the figure closer to 80%. That means that our actual "borders" follow our economic boundaries - not physical lines drawn on a map. Whether some like it or not, in this country or abroad, we will continue to defend those interests wherever they are threatened along that actual economic frontier.

I do wish our President was more articulate. The European Union is obviously not an enemy. But it has become, as was the intent when it was formed, an economic competitor. Trump is merely attempting to redress a post-war construct of tariff and tax imbalances that were initially in our interests to insure the economic recovery of post-war Europe. The European Union has done that in spades and it is simply time to reframe those economic relationships.

But we would all be fools to allow conservative radicals on this side of the Atlantic and socialist radicals on the other to destroy an alliance which may be our last best chance to preserve a culture which is under growing existential assault from both Isalm and the emerging super power in the East - China.

We also build far better rifles in the US and Western Europe than anywhere else on the planet.

 

[Hogpatrol]

I had to double check to see I was looking at the right thread, i thought we were talking about guns.

Thread derailed. I'm an accomplice and guilty as charged.

 

[HWL]

You keep repeating this without any fact to back it up. .

Is this not enough?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...-brexit-foe-germany-Heiko-Maas-vladimir-Putin

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/trump-takes-aim-at-germany-and-nato-a-1218335.html

https://www.voanews.com/a/trump-and-europe-friend-or-foe-/4485971.html

http://www.france24.com/en/20180716...pean-union-foe-usa-ahead-putin-russia-Meeting

https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Trump-bezeichnet-EU-als-Feind-Amerikas-4110529.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...marks-foe-tusk-timmermans-bildt-a8449046.html

Probably, you are really not able to read.....or you simply do not want to understand.

But this does not matter.... Americas role as the leader of the free world is gone, completely.

This president has distroyed, what generations of americans have built.

Today, you will find not even one country in this world, that relies on America.

All these countrys, Donald Trump has "trampeled" are smithing new alliances, feverish!

And they just figure out, there are opportunitys, and it is not neccesary to be Americas servant any longer.

It is a punishment of God for a country to be ruled by a complete idiot. (Albert Einstein)


HWL

 

[Alistair]

My take, Russia could care less about it's former satellites unless they are sitting on oil or gas, except for the Baltic states.

Not sure I entirely agree here. I doubt many of the rich Oligarchs who are actully in charge over there care much, but I suspect many of the common people, especially of the older generation and lower economic classes really do.

My logic is this: For a whole swathe of the Russian populace, a time when Russia was a genuine world power is within living memory. Everyone over the age of about 45 was born in a Soviet system, educated in a Soviet system and formed their opinions over their country from what was effectively Soviet propoganda during much of their formative years. That doesn't just go away. Now, if you are an Oligarch, that doesn't matter. Capitalism is clearly and demonstrably better because it's made you billions and you live in a major city which sees the benefits from that investment. Your life is better now than it was in 1980.

But for the rural farmer, living basically hand to mouth and watching increasing wealth inequality, what has capitalism ever done for them? Their country is still corrupt, they're still poor, but now they can buy a McDonalds. Big deal.

For these people, the 'good old days' of the USSR are precisely that. To them the changing regime hasn't helped them personally, so it seems that the ruling classes have sacrificed Russias place on the word stage for personal wealth, something that isn't going to go down well with people who again, were educated in a communist state. Where is Russias economic might now? Where is her grand civil engineering projects, her world class military, her cutting edge technology? All sacrificed for personal profit, whilst the rest of the world has passed her by.

So what's the relevance of this to expansion into former Soviet states? Well, Putin and the russian government are at least slightly beholden to these people. And for these people, empire building, a return to the glory days when Russia was powerful on the world stage, an acknowledged super power is very appealing. They don't actually care about the economic benefits of regaining these countries, its all pretty academic when your net assets are a few acres of tundra and an aged Lada, they care about the perception of their country.

We see this in Britain as well. People still hearken back to the old 'Great' Britain, empire on which the sun never sets, blah blah, and that was well before living memory. Just think how unbearable Nigel Farage would be if we granted India independence in 1987, not 1947.

So that's why it could happen. For many people in Russia, regaining the old eastern european states is positive, not because it helps them economically, but because it soothes their national pride. They equate regaining those lands with a resurgence in Russian prominence with all the attendent benefits that brings in prestige and to a lesser degree standard of living. That's what Putin is potentially banking on, and why annexation could happen. Plus, of course, Putin is ex-KGB, he's hardly immune to a bit of nostalgia for the glory days himself, as long as it doesn't hurt his bank balance...

 

[HWL]

I had to double check to see I was looking at the right thread, i thought we were talking about guns.

Sorry for this...

My best american guns are a Ruger #1 and a Ruger M77,....within the last 30 years, nothing better came.

HWL

 

[Pheroze]

We also build far better rifles in the US and Western Europe than anywhere else on the planet.

This is ultimately worth fighting for. And we must start with this thread. I think the current tension is a result of antihunters splitting our community. Once they isolate our rifle manufacturers they can pick them off one at a time. Stand strong.

I personally have a soft spot for a Czech made action, maybe I figure any place with such beautiful women to impress will inspire the artisans. Just a theory.

Btw, little known fact - the Berlin wall was just a crude method to prevent the west from knowing the superior genetics of women from Croatia, Czech and similar. True story.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program....

 

[Red Leg]

Not sure I entirely agree here. I doubt many of the rich Oligarchs who are actully in charge over there care much, but I suspect many of the common people, especially of the older generation and lower economic classes really do.

My logic is this: For a whole swathe of the Russian populace, a time when Russia was a genuine world power is within living memory. Everyone over the age of about 45 was born in a Soviet system, educated in a Soviet system and formed their opinions over their country from what was effectively Soviet propoganda during much of their formative years. That doesn't just go away. Now, if you are an Oligarch, that doesn't matter. Capitalism is clearly and demonstrably better because it's made you billions and you live in a major city which sees the benefits from that investment. Your life is better now than it was in 1980.

But for the rural farmer, living basically hand to mouth and watching increasing wealth inequality, what has capitalism ever done for them? Their country is still corrupt, they're still poor, but now they can buy a McDonalds. Big deal.

For these people, the 'good old days' of the USSR are precisely that. To them the changing regime hasn't helped them personally, so it seems that the ruling classes have sacrificed Russias place on the word stage for personal wealth, something that isn't going to go down well with people who again, were educated in a communist state. Where is Russias economic might now? Where is her grand civil engineering projects, her world class military, her cutting edge technology? All sacrificed for personal profit, whilst the rest of the world has passed her by.

So what's the relevance of this to expansion into former Soviet states? Well, Putin and the russian government are at least slightly beholden to these people. And for these people, empire building, a return to the glory days when Russia was powerful on the world stage, an acknowledged super power is very appealing. They don't actually care about the economic benefits of regaining these countries, its all pretty academic when your net assets are a few acres of tundra and an aged Lada, they care about the perception of their country.

We see this in Britain as well. People still hearken back to the old 'Great' Britain, empire on which the sun never sets, blah blah, and that was well before living memory. Just think how unbearable Nigel Farage would be if we granted India independence in 1987, not 1947.

So that's why it could happen. For many people in Russia, regaining the old eastern european states is positive, not because it helps them economically, but because it soothes their national pride. They equate regaining those lands with a resurgence in Russian prominence with all the attendent benefits that brings in prestige and to a lesser degree standard of living. That's what Putin is potentially banking on, and why annexation could happen. Plus, of course, Putin is ex-KGB, he's hardly immune to a bit of nostalgia for the glory days himself, as long as it doesn't hurt his bank balance...

I think this is an extremely well reasoned summation of one of the major influences on Russia's international behavior - much of which seems to fly in the face of strict national interests.

 

[Royal27]

Is this not enough?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...-brexit-foe-germany-Heiko-Maas-vladimir-Putin

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/trump-takes-aim-at-germany-and-nato-a-1218335.html

https://www.voanews.com/a/trump-and-europe-friend-or-foe-/4485971.html

http://www.france24.com/en/20180716...pean-union-foe-usa-ahead-putin-russia-Meeting

https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Trump-bezeichnet-EU-als-Feind-Amerikas-4110529.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...marks-foe-tusk-timmermans-bildt-a8449046.html

Probably, you are really not able to read.....or you simply do not want to understand.

But this does not matter.... Americas role as the leader of the free world is gone, completely.

This president has distroyed, what generations of americans have built.

Today, you will find not even one country in this world, that relies on America.

All these countrys, Donald Trump has "trampeled" are smithing new alliances, feverish!

And they just figure out, there are opportunitys, and it is not neccesary to be Americas servant any longer.

It is a punishment of God for a country to be ruled by a complete idiot. (Albert Einstein)


HWL

No, it isn't enough. There is a very great difference between calling the EU an economic foe and calling Germany an enemy. You keep saying the latter, incorrectly. The EU is a foe of America economically. Foe doesn't just mean enemy, it also means competitor. If you don't ahree that the EU and The United States compete economically then we simply don't have any common ground on this subject.

I'm not in favor of isolationism for America, at all. I'm also not in favor of other countries taking advantage of America in way that is no longer required. We should be fair and equal partners, with neither side holding an advantage. This changes the world order though, and makes many cringe.

You can insult me by saying I'm not able to read or understand all that you want. Insults are what liberals and socialists do here too when someone disagrees with their view. I'm used to it.


Since you want to throw around quotes, here is one for you. I hope we all take heed of this.

"If you tell a lie big enough, and keep repeating it people will eventually come to believe it." (Joseph Goebbels)

 

[flat8]

Thanks for your assessment.

I am absolutely with you, that Germany will not be the same in two decades.

But I trust in my country, it will be better than ever before.

At the end of WWII, America was strong and sourrounded by friends, today they are sourrounded by enemys, Donald Trump named them.

At the end of WWII, Germany was destroyed and sourrounded by enemys.... and they wanted Germany weak.

Do you have any idea, why the situation is as it is today?

Please keep in mind, whenever Germans do something, they try to do it better than anyone else.

This does not work always, but Germany always is suspicious, it could.

Whenever Germans went to war, the world hold breath.

After WWII, Germany tried "peace", and it turned out, it works even much better than "war".

Today, Germany is sourrounded by friends and THEY WANT GERMANY STRONG!!!

Never in history, the situation was like this.

Why to hell, Germany should follow the advice from the only enemy that is is left over?

The only enemy Germany has today, are the United States of America, declared by Donald Trump.

But this is not a situation, Germany is responsible for.

Germany always wanted to have the friendship of the United States, AND STILL WANTS.

But they spy us, they fight our economy, they treat us as enemys.

Should someday America retreat its troops from Europe, I guarantee, there will be a great after show party and an even stronger Germany.

Americas has a list of enemys, they also should have a list of lost allys.


HWL

We agree on one thing - I too hope the US leaves that dying continent. Best of luck to you and your country.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Politics is the thread title. That pretty well leaves the door open....

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

View attachment 240474

Politics is the thread title. That pretty well leaves the door open....

I also made it sticky!

 

[Dudders]

You can insult me by saying I'm not able to read or understand all that you want. Insults are what liberals and socialists do here too when someone disagrees with their view. I'm used to it.

Royal I wouldn't waste my time reading the two uk articles either. Ones a tabloid and is full of s**t the other is so popular it had to stop printing and go online and begs for money to keep it running.

 

[Hogpatrol]

When your well heeled friend is always out of cash when you stop for lunch, it's time to find a new one. That's what our "allies" have been doing to us for the last umpteen decades. I'm retired and a U.S. taxpayer. I'm tired of subsidizing the rest of the free world and some of the not so free world. The really sad part of it all is we are BORROWING MONEY TO DO IT!

 

[Fred Gunner]

There...There just a little tantrum from our brothers from the frozen 51st, state of America... We sympathize with your inferiority complex, your lack of self-esteem is perfectly understandable but we love your beer and smoked meat...(Stand by for the total snowflake melt down... 51st, state of America triggers them every time!)

 

[lwaters]

Could it be possible that the EU may have to build a large military to help their economy?