M1861 Plymouth Mystery

[fourfive8]

Starting a new thread here as a continuation of some posts in the H&R 58 caliber thread. Asking for any ideas of how an M1861 Navy Plymouth rifle ended up in continental Asia near the end of WWII. I have my theories but none seem a sure bet.

The rifle here is an M1861 69 caliber Navy Plymouth rifle made by Whitney in 1862- first year of production (with deliveries beginning in 1863). Additionally the bayonet serial on the tang is fairly low also indicating early production. The Plymouth rifle is a product of the persistence of John Dahlgren who was the head Navy ordnance officer for the US in the years leading up to the Civil War and continuing through out the Civil War. He was best known for designing the famous Dahlgren cannon with its easy to recognize smooth, curved glass bottle form. Additionally, he sought to design and have issued a Navy percussion rifle more suited for naval use than the standard infantry US 58 cal rifle musket. He felt a slightly shorter rifle firing a larger bullet (Minie) would better meet the needs of the Navy at that time. After testing and many consultations with various contractors including the national armories themselves, Dahlgren succeeded in procuring a contract from the only maker willing to take on the task of making 10,000 short rifles in 69 caliber under the specifications of the contract. Whitney got the contract, delivering the first rifles to the Navy in Feb. 1863. Two bayonets were approved for the M1861 69 caliber "Plymouth" rifle- one a long yataghan short sword bayonet and the other, a much shorter Bowie style designed by Dahlgren himself. The Dahlgren "Bowie" bayonets are very rare as far fewer were made. Dahlgren wanted a larger rifle for better effect and downrange penetration on ships bulwarks and above deck structures. The M1861 Plymouth was equipped with a flip up rear staff sight calibrated to 1000 yds. The penetration test I did with the 69 cal 710 gr Minie certainly supports his findings. I included a pic of the Minie I fired into very tough test media next to an unfired example. The near pure lead 69 cal Minie, at very modest impact velocity, penetrated much deeper than many modern, tough premium, jacketed expanding bullets I have tested. Many of those bullets stop at about 14-16" This Minie penetrated to nearly 19" inches.

The M1861 saw service thought out the Civil War and was carried on various Union warships. The Navy personnel held the rifle in high esteem during its years of service before being retired by the more modern breech loaders like the Remington rolling block. After the end of the Civil War, large stockpiles of excess rifles and muskets of all varieties were placed in storage to be sold off as surplus later. I'm certain all manner of small arms and equipments, so sold, ended up in all corners of the world.

One theory I have is this rifle served from the beginning of its issuance early in 1863 until past or at the end of the war. It shows definite evidence of being lashed to a ship's small arms rack with a groove worn in the stock opposite the lock plate over an extended time, possibly years. I have seen photos of other Plymouth rifles showing that same worn groove. It was likely put into storage after the Civil War and sometime after the Civil War sold as surplus. Then it made it's way to continental Asia via an arms dealer or dealers. The rifle then somehow survived the elements and likely sketchy maintenance by unknown keeper (s) until being recovered by a US soldier late in WWII (1945). That soldier then brought the rifle home as a war souvenir as was common then.

An alternative theory is that this rifle, within a larger group of course, was put in storage after the Civil War then issued out again, as favors to friendly locals in such places as New Guinea, Borneo, Philippines and other SE Asia island groups during WWII. There are records reflecting such transactions done under Allied authorities like the Australians who had strict policies against giving more advanced arms like modern breechloaders to friendly locals in areas of their oversight and authority. These M1861s were only a small part of the payments given out in these areas in the attempt to maintain allegiance to the Allied cause and against the Japanese who were controlling many of these areas at the time. I suppose that during WWII some of the M1861 Plymouth rifles, destined for friendly locals, could have made their way to the Asian mainland, with this rifle later recovered by the US soldier near the Burma (Myanmar) China border. This is supported by a small bit of WWII US OSS evidence indicating supplying US muzzleloading arms to various subversive groups in Europe and the India-Burma-China theater. Tantalizing eh! It fits, but still purposefully a little bit sketchy on details given the nature of the OSS operations- understandable.

Aside from the obvious about the details of its journey, another mystery to me is how did it survive in such good condition? The bore is smooth and shiny top to bottom with no pits and little or no wear to the edges of the lands or at the muzzle. I dunno!

If anyone has ideas about any of these unknowns, by all means speak up. Happy to hear possibilities, no matter how odd Also, please correct any errors I've made in the post.

 

[R.M.C.]

Weird. Someone definitely took care of it!!

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I wonder what the chances are it was dragged along in the Philippine American war. Slim I would guess, but possible.
What country in Asia was it found in?

 

[fourfive8]

I wonder what the chances are it was dragged along in the Philippine American war. Slim I would guess, but possible.
What country in Asia was it found in?

I doubt any M1861s were on any of Dewey's ships in 1898 when he sailed from Hong Kong, caught practically the entire Spanish Fleet in Manila Bay and sank it- effectively ending the Spanish American War. I don't know about, but doubt, the possibility of any being brought in during the Moro insurrection that followed sporadically in the Philippines from 1899 to 1913.

However the Philippines is a possibility for original entry into Asia during WWII. The US via McArthur support and pressure were certainly supplying the Filipino underground insurgents throughout the Philippines all during the Japanese occupation.

The papers I have indicate Burma- present day Myanmar. If in fact that was the actual recovery site- I don't know. Always possible it was recovered somewhere else then the bring back papers were filed once the soldier was in Burma/China border area- a very active over-the-hump air transport zone late in the war.

 

[fourfive8]

@Wyatt Smith, here's is a segue

This is a Moro kris from the Philippines. It was brought back by a US soldier serving there during the Moro Rebellion just after the Spanish American War. The family of the soldier who brought it back, said it was confiscated from Moros by a US constabulary unit the soldier was assigned to sometime between 1899 and about 1905.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I wish we could find out for sure. It’s so interesting. If I recall the US did a lot of trading in Burma and Malaya for rubber and tin.I am unsure of when however. My history is a little rusty as to when they became part of the British empire and how soon we got along with the British.
Most of the reading I have done indicates that they sent mostly M1 carbine to the guerrillas in the Philippines during the war due to their small size. All materials had to be brought in by submarine.
A strange side note is that most of the “guerrilla” groups spent more time fighting each other over territory than fighting the Japanese.

 

[fourfive8]

@Wyatt Smith, that history is correct I believe. There were a surpriising number of submarine drops of supplies and I assume payola into the Philippines during the war. Yamashita actually made a comment about how disruptive the local guerrilla forces were to the Japanese in the Philippines. IIRC the history, the Japanese (or at least Yamashita had) chosen the Philippines to be their headquarters of operations for all of SE Asia. That Yamashita remark, at the time he made it, almost sounds like he or they had resigned themselves to the fact that was not going to happen. And no it wouldn't make sense for the US to use submarines to transport bulky arms like the M1861s- money, M1 carbines, handguns, electronics, etc. would be much more likely than large bulky muzzleloaders for sure. But records indicate M1861s were distributed to other neighboring island groups in the area during the war- I assume by air or regular sea transport. And I would imagine local boat "commerce" of booty and goods among all the island groups in that part of the Pacific continued throughout the war. There's a good documentary out about how the Borneo (Kalimantan) locals dealt with the Japanese and the Allied airmen shot down over Borneo during the war. I know the British were involved significantly in Borneo and the Australians had direct interest in the all those island groups because of proximity. Jumping over to the Asia mainland, when thinking of this type history of WWII, for some reason I always think of the "The Bridge Over the River Kwai" - a snippet of the war about the rail connection between Burma and Thailand.

link to interesiting article about Philippines WWII

The Philippines, 1942-1945: the resistance and the return | The Past

James Kelly Morningstar describes the Philippine resistance to the Japanese occupation during WWII.

the-past.com

A WWIII Japanese "pillbox" still standing in southern Mindanao Philippines- about 1/2 mile behind my niece and nephew's house

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Have you ever read “American Guerrilla in the Philippines”? It is a very good read, and most informative.
I am currently reading “Suez to Singapore” by war correspondent Cecil Brown. It give a good insight to the early days of the war, both in North Africa, and later, Singapore.
My current favorite books to read are war books published before the war was over, or directly after.
“The Bridge on the River Kwai” is one of my favorite movies.

 

[Randy F]

Have you ever read “American Guerrilla in the Philippines”? It is a very good read, and most informative.
I am currently reading “Suez to Singapore” by war correspondent Cecil Brown. It give a good insight to the early days of the war, both in North Africa, and later, Singapore.
My current favorite books to read are war books published before the war was over, or directly after.
“The Bridge on the River Kwai” is one of my favorite movies.

+1

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I certainly cannot add to the info that you already have. Just wondering have you have just wondering if you have been able to trace down the family of the soldier that brought it back. I would think It would be a little long for a duffle bag. I hope different members can shed more info.

 

[ay2626]

Very interesting information in this thread. Thanks for sharing!

 

[fourfive8]

I certainly cannot add to the info that you already have. Just wondering have you have just wondering if you have been able to trace down the family of the soldier that brought it back. I would think It would be a little long for a duffle bag. I hope different members can shed more info.

And same here- I can't add much either other than bits and pieces and educated guesses. The name of course is on the bring back papers but I have not tried to contact the family. I know it was fairly common to bring back small arms rifles and similar items during WWII.

Many allied aircraft and personnel were involved in flying supplies over the Hump. If in fact this M1861 was recovered in Burma or even nearby China at that time, it is possible the GI who obtained the rifle may have had access to air transport back to the US making it easier for that task. ??

The tantalizing clue in this may be too simple and we all know about "too simple" If the US OSS office did distribute some M1861s to local friendly resistance fighters in the Burma area, it may be that this rifle was simply held by a local possibly a local leader (who would have had first dibs on incoming goodies) and kept it in a safe and environmentally friendly place until word got out about GIs on the look out for war souvenirs. I am pretty certain it could not have spent much if any time being dragged around a mountainous jungle or hidden in a damp thatched hut.... In time, late in the war, word reached the appropriate parties, a deal was struck and the rifle made it's way back to the US.

How did this rifle remain is such good condition?? After all it went into Naval service early in 1863 and spent the rest of the Civil War on a Union warship being constantly jostled while lashed down in the ship's small arms rack in a salt air environment. The lash down scar in the wood near the cross bolt head is clear evidence it spent significant time on a war ship at sea. This is the only damage to the rifle and it is cosmetic. This scenario is most likely, so a good guess would be those in charge of small arms maintenance on that ship (s) were real task masters! Next, after the Civil War, it went into storage at a US Naval depot or storage facility. Could have been packed in cosmoline or equivalent, paper wrapped and crated. It sat there until put back into service by the OSS during WWII and sent to the one of SE Asia Islands or Burma for purposes of arming local resistance fighters. It was obviousy taken care of again showing little wear and no rust pitting. It was recovered in 1945 and came back to the US as a war souvenir- with bring back papers being signed in Burma. But again, I know how wrong "seems so simple" stories can be

 

[fourfive8]

....A strange side note is that most of the “guerrilla” groups spent more time fighting each other over territory than fighting the Japanese.

You may possibly be referring in part to the HUK insurgents and HUK Rebellion in the Philippines from 1946-54. The HUKs were one of the guerrilla groups on Luzon who fought against the Japanese during WWII. After the war, they wanted to remain as a primary political power in the Philippines but had adopted a heavily communist platform. They had transformed into an anti government group and never gained widespread public support in the country. Most of their leadership were finally captured in the Manila area, ending their post WWII power play- ca 1954.

Here's the interesting part, I know of no official US OSS "recorded" distribution of surplus M1861s or any "muzzleloading" rifles to the Philippines during WWII. But as posted earlier, there are sketchy records of distribution of M1861s to nearby island groups like New Guinea. The OSS at that time was, by nature and necessity, a covert organization. In any case there is a record of personal witness by a member of a US Special Forces team working with the Philippine military in 1971. Coincidentally he was somewhat of an historical rifle expert. He remembers inspecting a large cache of weapons the Philippine military had confiscated from the HUK insurgents over the years since 1946. He distinctly remembers seeing 5 or 6 M1861 Plymouth rifles in the cache.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

You may possibly be referring in part to the HUK insurgents and HUK Rebellion in the Philippines from 1946-54.

I was referring to American Guerrillas who did not surrender during the fall of the Philippines. This mainly happened in vast jungles where the Japanese had no reason to be.
The guerrillas were clever and resourceful on a level which is hard to believe. The made primers to reload 30-06 ammo, moulded bullets using curtain rods, and used powder taken from mines.
The also set up telephone lines using stolen Japanese Barb-wire, and used coke bottles for insulators. So I am certain they would made good use of the muzzle loaders.

 

[fourfive8]

OK got it!. Yes that is a very interesting story in and of itself. Several names pop up in records. Almost unbelievable that several Americans decided to stay after Corregidor. They formed the core of some of the resistance cells. One stands out- someone you'd never expect- a radio host IIRC. That lifestyle took its toll with some losing body condition to the point of near permanent disability. Some of that mountainous jungle terrain has to be seen and navigated to be believed! Also, kind of surprising malaria and dengue fever didn't get most of them.