CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses

@Tanner Lee that is the question. I am also surprised that China doesn't already have captive lions. Maybe they do. Or maybe their diet precludes this. Botswana would probably send them to Germany....FWB
 
I have no idea if anybody here have seen a lion breeding farm in RSA...
II did and t was awful.
I'm happy that this practice is coming to an end.
 
I’m not sad that canned lion hunting is banned. I’ve already said it before that lion hunting is my No. 1 favorite African dangerous game hunt of all time. Wild lion, that is. I’ve been on one canned lion hunt in my life. It was nowhere like “Shooting fish in a barrel“ as some critics complain. But it just wasn’t for me. And I immediately resolved to never participate in another canned lion hunt, ever again (although I can certainly understand the appeal amongst certain aspiring hunters on a budget).

But you all do realize that canned lion hunting is just the latest target of the anti hunting lobby, right ?

Once this is over, they’ll not waste any time in going after wild lion hunting. And then, leopard. Then, elephant. Then, hippopotamus. Then, Cape buffalo. Then, plains game.

Give them an inch and they will want a mile. The same pressure groups who got tiger hunting banned in my part of the world, immediately went after deer hunting as soon tiger hunting was banned. Don’t believe me ? Read about India’s “Project Tiger” and then cross reference your findings with the so-called Indian “Wildlife Protection Act-1972” (which banned all hunting).

Don’t fool yourselves into thinking that banning canned lion hunts will get these crazed animal rights cultists off our backs. It’s only going to embolden them.
 
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That’s all mostly fair. I suppose my distinction comes when farmers as opposed to hunters control the practice. Deer in Texas and quail and pheasant are primarily raised for hunting. Lions are raised equally to supply bone trade, petting industry, and hunting to generate maximum revenue from an animal. I’ve read the SAPA standards but really there are no controls or verifications in place on what lions make it to the hunting industry. It’s primarily a farming activity with hunting sold as a harvesting method for the bones. I don’t know of any other species that integrates that many aspects into one farming practice but is defended as hunting. I’ve wrote in other posts if it was no longer called hunting my objection would go away, but I don’t think “farmed lion harvesting” would sell many lions to hunters.

There are several examples of "hunting" that I on a personal level dont consider hunting at all (I can think of a particular 300 acre high fence "ranch" in TX that has about 2000 hogs on it that sells "hunts".. theres nothing "hunting" about what goes on there in my mind... when you have that many hogs on that small of a property, there is literally nothing for them to eat other than the corn that gets put out each day.. its a hog "shoot".. where there are 20+ "hunters" strewn across that small amount of acreage just sitting and waiting for the side by side to swing by and drop off 30lbs of corn.. within 2-3 minutes anywhere from 5-50 hogs will appear...

but, its hogs.. so no one seems to care..

if they were doing the same thing with deer, there would be complete outrage from both hunters and anti's alike...

I agree with you in that "farmed lion harvesting" wont sell...

Im just sort of shakesperian on the matter.. "whats in a name? that which we call a rose, by any other name, would smell just as sweet..."

For me it comes down to my own personal ethical and moral compass... that drives what I will and wont do, what I will encourage others to do or not do, or what I dont really care enough about to encourage or discourage others on..

I dont find anything about the way most "CBL" hunts are orchestrated attractive.. so, I dont have any interest in doing one.. but at the same time I look at it and recognize that its not illegal (at least not at this moment), and that other people do indeed want to do it.. I consider that other animals are raised specifically for the purpose of harvesting them (whether for their meat, or for sport (hogs in TX at many places, etc).. So I take a position of "do what your moral and ethical compass allows you to do... I wont try to horn in on your life choices... you dont try to horn in on mine.. and we can figure out a way to respect one another and live in harmony together, despite our differences"...

Once the law changes, then everything changes.. its now clearly illegal whether I personally like it or not.. so I cant condone it... and would actively discourage others from participating in CBL hunting..
 
...

if there is no financial reward available for lions.. there will be little use for them anywhere in South Africa other than in the national parks... game ranchers certainly wont want them roaming around their PG herds.. people in small towns certainly wont want them roaming around in the general area where they maintain domestic herds of goats, sheep, cattle, etc (not to mention children, pets, etc)...
Game ranchers do not have them roaming around other game, and there are no free-range lions roaming around in South Africa.

Good riddance.
 
I’m not sad that canned lion hunting is banned. But you all do realize that canned lion hunting is just the latest target of the anti hunting lobby, right ?

Once this is over, they’ll not waste any time in going after wild lion hunting. And then, leopard. Then, elephant. Then, hippopotamus. Then, Cape buffalo. Then, plains game.

and canned hunting isnt limited to lions in South Africa..

there is a place about 30 minutes north of DFW that is less than 50 acres, where they sell aoudad "hunts"..

as mentioned previously, there are numerous places all over the South Eastern US, as well as a few places in TX that I am aware of (and I am sure in other states as well that I am unaware of) that very controlled pigeon, quail, chukar, etc hunts are conducted..

So where does the line get drawn?

I personally detest the idea of "hunting" an aoudad on 50 acres of high fence property (where there are reportedly about 30-40 aoudad living)... but.. for now, this is perfectly legal..

if/when legislation is passed to shut something like this down.. who is going to draw the line, and where is it going to get drawn? what is "canned"? 50 acres? 200 acres? 1000 acres? what animals can you hunt in a "canned" environment vs which ones can you not?

we already have an encyclopedia full of silly, meaningless, ineffective hunting regulations in the US.. this is largely because legislation is drafted by lawyers and lobbyists with an agenda and then passed by legislators that know little to nothing about what the law they are passing actually does or means..

who here thinks the "straight wall cartridge" laws in some midwest states make any sense? or do anything actually positive for society? or fix any known problem?
 
Game ranchers do not have them roaming around other game, and there are no free-range lions roaming around in South Africa.

Good riddance.

thats exactly the point..

they dont have them.. nor will they...


the comment was specifically about the total number of lions in SA will certainly decline rapidly.. because other than the national parks, there will be no use for lions in SA.. they no longer "pay".. so they will no longer "stay"...
 
I expect that all the lions current on CBL farms will be euthanised when the laws come into effect.

Lions that have been habituated to humans pose an unacceptable risk if released into the wild. From what I've read, they figure disproportionately in predation on humans.
Furthermore, the wording of the panel recommendations suggests that it is not limited to just the CBL situation "“The panel recommended the closure of the captive breeding sector, including the keeping of lions in captivity, or the use of captive lions or their derivatives commercially,” A ban on commercial use would include the bone trade or selling live animals.

So basically leaving current owners with no option. As a result, the number of lions in SA would go from around 11,500 - 15,500 down to 3,500. A massive victory for lion conservation and biodiversity. :rolleyes:

ps. I couldn't afford a wild lion hunt, and have no interest in a CBL hunt.
 

South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting​

Breeders have two years to voluntarily withdraw from the sector and change business model


Published: April 03, 2024 17:56AFP
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The practice of breeding big cats to have them shot later by wealthy hunters has long been loathed by conservation and animal rights groups.Image Credit: Pixabay
Cape Town: South Africa on Wednesday laid out plans to phase out the captive breeding of lions for hunting purposes as the country moves to ban the controversial business.
The practice of breeding big cats to later have them shot by wealthy hunters typically paying thousands of US dollars has long been loathed by conservation and animal rights groups.


Hunters, usually foreigners, sometimes take home the head or skin of the killed animal as a trophy.
The South African government had already announced its intention to ban the breeding of lions for hunting in 2021 and an ad hoc panel has been working on the issue for the past two years.
“The panel recommended the closure of the captive breeding sector, including the keeping of lions in captivity, or the use of captive lions or their derivatives commercially,” Environment Minister Barabara Creecy told a press conference in Cape Town.

Breeders will have two years to voluntarily withdraw from the sector and change their business model before the ban kicks in.
The idea, which has faced strong opposition from representatives of the highly lucrative industry, was approved by the government last week but is yet to be translated into law.
The move comes with trophy hunting facing a growing backlash in the West.

Campaigns to ban the import of trophies have drawn support in the United States, Australia and several European countries in recent years.
“The industry is large and complex with a long history that is not aligned with both current international trends and domestic policy changes on conservation,” said Kamalasen Chetty, head of the ad hoc panel.
Between 8,000 and 12,000 lions are kept on about 350 farms across South Africa, according to estimates by animal rights groups that regularly denounce the conditions in which the animals are held.

The number of wild lions in comparison totals only around 3,500, according to the Endangered Wildlife Trust, a South Africa-based NGO.
I'm afraid too that it is the lions that will pay the real price. Such a complicated and complex issue.
 
I can’t afford a wild lion hunt and have absolutely no desire to hunt a CBL but as the deadline nears I would think the “ lion farmers” would have a sale on the remaining lions and reduce the prices to get something out of the animals. This turns my stomach to reduce such a great animal into just a bottom line on a financial sheet.
 
I expect that all the lions current on CBL farms will be euthanised when the laws come into effect.

Lions that have been habituated to humans pose an unacceptable risk if released into the wild. From what I've read, they figure disproportionately in predation on humans.
Furthermore, the wording of the panel recommendations suggests that it is not limited to just the CBL situation "“The panel recommended the closure of the captive breeding sector, including the keeping of lions in captivity, or the use of captive lions or their derivatives commercially,” A ban on commercial use would include the bone trade or selling live animals.

So basically leaving current owners with no option. As a result, the number of lions in SA would go from around 11,500 - 15,500 down to 3,500. A massive victory for lion conservation and biodiversity. :rolleyes:

ps. I couldn't afford a wild lion hunt, and have no interest in a CBL hunt.
When that happens, the poaching of wild lions will likely skyrocket. If the legal bone trade gets shut down, the buyers will look to illegal sources, just like the ivory & rhino horn trade.
There are a number of bison ranches in the US that sell hunts on marginally sized acreage. When they can't sell enough tickets to maintain herd size, the others are loaded and hauled to a packing plant. Objectively no different than these CBL farms.
As @Hunter-Habib pointed out, this is just another step in the anti's push to eradicate hunting, of anything. Unfortunately, they have been successful in this particular arena. Divide and conquer has aided their cause as much as the misinformation they spread to the general public. Just look at the heated debates on AH when CBL hunting gets brought up.
When hunters give the anti's free ammunition by fighting over the different methods used by different hunters in different areas (CBL, CB(X,Y,Z), @mdwest points out a lot of global examples of CB(X,Y,Z) hunts, crossbows v compounds, baiting, deer hunting with dogs, mountain lion with dogs, etc, etc), we are complicit in the loss when another regulation/law gets passed eliminating one of these types of hunts. If a particular type/method of hunting doesn't fit your notion of ethical or uses a method you don't like, don't participate in it. But we need to quit supporting those who want to ban ALL types/methods of hunting by cheering when a type/method we don't like gets killed. Next on the target list of the anti's might be one of those you do like.
 
When that happens, the poaching of wild lions will likely skyrocket. If the legal bone trade gets shut down, the buyers will look to illegal sources, just like the ivory & rhino horn trade.
There are a number of bison ranches in the US that sell hunts on marginally sized acreage. When they can't sell enough tickets to maintain herd size, the others are loaded and hauled to a packing plant. Objectively no different than these CBL farms.
As @Hunter-Habib pointed out, this is just another step in the anti's push to eradicate hunting, of anything. Unfortunately, they have been successful in this particular arena. Divide and conquer has aided their cause as much as the misinformation they spread to the general public. Just look at the heated debates on AH when CBL hunting gets brought up.
When hunters give the anti's free ammunition by fighting over the different methods used by different hunters in different areas (CBL, CB(X,Y,Z), @mdwest points out a lot of global examples of CB(X,Y,Z) hunts, crossbows v compounds, baiting, deer hunting with dogs, mountain lion with dogs, etc, etc), we are complicit in the loss when another regulation/law gets passed eliminating one of these types of hunts. If a particular type/method of hunting doesn't fit your notion of ethical or uses a method you don't like, don't participate in it. But we need to quit supporting those who want to ban ALL types/methods of hunting by cheering when a type/method we don't like gets killed. Next on the target list of the anti's might be one of those you do like.
I respectfully disagree.
CBL hunting is not recognized by SCI and advertising of it banned in their publications and convention.
Also if we don't condemn and ban practices like that we'll give more fuel to anti-hunting crowd to convince the general public.
I'm not anti hunting by any stretch of imagination obviously but after seeing the places where they were bred I was disgusted.
 
When that happens, the poaching of wild lions will likely skyrocket. If the legal bone trade gets shut down, the buyers will look to illegal sources, just like the ivory & rhino horn trade.
There are a number of bison ranches in the US that sell hunts on marginally sized acreage. When they can't sell enough tickets to maintain herd size, the others are loaded and hauled to a packing plant. Objectively no different than these CBL farms.
As @Hunter-Habib pointed out, this is just another step in the anti's push to eradicate hunting, of anything. Unfortunately, they have been successful in this particular arena. Divide and conquer has aided their cause as much as the misinformation they spread to the general public. Just look at the heated debates on AH when CBL hunting gets brought up.
When hunters give the anti's free ammunition by fighting over the different methods used by different hunters in different areas (CBL, CB(X,Y,Z), @mdwest points out a lot of global examples of CB(X,Y,Z) hunts, crossbows v compounds, baiting, deer hunting with dogs, mountain lion with dogs, etc, etc), we are complicit in the loss when another regulation/law gets passed eliminating one of these types of hunts. If a particular type/method of hunting doesn't fit your notion of ethical or uses a method you don't like, don't participate in it. But we need to quit supporting those who want to ban ALL types/methods of hunting by cheering when a type/method we don't like gets killed. Next on the target list of the anti's might be one of those you do like.
Something missing from your analysis is the history of CBL. There is no tradition associated with it and it’s a farming invention in the last 30 years. It’s easier to blame the anti-hunters than the hunters and farmers that pushed this activity forward. These hunts were originally sold as problem lions from Botswana trying to avoid discussing where they came from. Then the lie was told they were taking pressure off wild lion populations by reducing hunting demand, however wild lions are managed on very small and that money is needed to fund conservation efforts on huge areas. It simply devalued wild lions by offering a cheap and 100% successful quick hunt in South Africa for those only interested in the trophy. No major hunting organization supports this activity aside from PHASA who’s members make money from the practice. The hunters supporting this do more damage dividing hunters than the anti’s ever could have, but it’s easier to blame the anti-hunters.
 
So what is going to happen to those lions? They just going to kill them all then? Or are they going to release some?

I figure Ricky Gervais, Chris Packman, Brian Adams and company are all lining up to save them, don't you know.


If a ban comes into force:

:V Guillotine:
 

Minister Barbara Creecy on release of report of Ministerial Task Team on Voluntary Exit Options and Pathways from Captive Lion Industry​


03 Apr 2024

I have today, released the report of the Ministerial Task Team on Voluntary Exit Options and Pathways from the Captive Lion Industry. Cabinet has approved the release of the report and its recommendations for implementation.
The Ministerial Task Team (MTT) was appointed in December 2022, following a recommendation by the High Level Panel on matters relating to the management, breeding, hunting, trade and handling of elephant, lion, leopard and rhinoceros. The panel recommended the closure of the captive breeding sector, including the keeping of lions in captivity, or the use of captive lions or their derivatives commercially.
The task team was established to identify and recommend win-win voluntary exit options and pathways from captive lion industry. The team was chaired by Mr Kamalasen Chetty. The other members of the team were Mr Obied Katumba, Dr Louise de Waal, Ms Carla van der Vyfer, Dr Christine Steyrer, Adv Justice Mnisi and Dr Kelly Marnewick.
The key focus areas of the task team were:
  • To undertake a process of engagement with key stakeholders in the captive lion industry, relevant issuing authorities and including any vulnerable workers.
  • Plan and oversee an audit of existing captive and captive-bred facilities to confirm the number of lions, their age and sex, stockpiles of lion parts and derivatives, the practices and uses within that facility, number, level of employment and skills of workers and potential other land use options within the biodiversity economy.
  • To develop and oversee the initial implementation of a voluntary exit strategy and pathways from the captive lion industry for stakeholders who wish to pursue this option. This exit strategy should consider all possible options, and prevailing issued within the captive lion industry.
  • To identify, mobilise and endorse potential funding mechanisms, sources and procedures to support the voluntary exit strategy and pathways.
  • To provide advice to the Minister or Department on any other matters related to the captive lion industry on request by either.
South Africa is a country, with diverse cultures, remarkable geological wealth, and exceptional biodiversity, much of which is unique, and with high levels of endemism. With this rich endowment comes the responsibility and challenge of ensuring our species and ecosystems are conserved and used sustainably for the benefit of all South Africans and future generations.
Section 24 of the Constitution requires reasonable legislative and other measures be put in place to ensure that the environment is protected, for the benefit of present and future generations, including through promoting conservation and securing ecologically sustainable development and use of natural resources.
This report should be understood in the broader policy context of the White Paper on Conservation and Sustainable use and the Policy Position on the conservation and sustainable use of elephant, lion, leopard and rhinoceros that was approved last week by Cabinet for implementation.
In summary, the Key Recommendations of the Task Team were that Government approve:
a) Phase 1: Engage voluntary exit candidates to finalise the pathways and exit terms.
b) Phase 2: Acquisition and incineration of lion bone stockpiles contingent upon sterilisation of lions and compliance with the voluntary exit principles.
c) Issue a short-term directive to ensure consistent application of animal well-being is assured through issuing of permits and conducting oversights.
d) Prohibit captive lion breeding in the medium term to safeguard benefits of voluntary exit.
I am pleased to announce that Cabinet has endorsed the recommendations of the Task Team.
I wish to thank the Ministerial Task Team, for the sterling work that it has done in producing a comprehensive and credible report with a set of findings and recommendations which address the difficult issues in the captive lion industry as contained in the Terms of Reference.
I also wish to thank the captive lion industry and the other key stakeholders who have assisted the Task Team in its work to identify voluntary exit options and pathways from captive lion industry.
I thank you.
To access the report, click on the link below:
https://www.dffe.gov.za/sites/default/files/reports/ministerialtaskteam…
Editors note:
Last week, cabinet approved the revised Policy Position on the conservation and sustainable use of elephant, lion, leopard and rhinoceros for implementation.
The strategic impact of this policy position is that it will provide policy certainty for specific elements of the conservation and sustainable use of these five species, and, furthermore, provide a basis to review legislation where applicable and appropriate.
Consistent with the policy context of the White Paper, this Policy Position focuses primarily on correcting unsustainable practices, promoting conservation, sustainable use, and the well-being of the five species, and providing policy direction for international commercial trade in the five species.
The Policy Position, therefore, proposes three conservation and sustainable use policy objectives to enhance species management:
• To end the captive keeping of lions for commercial purposes and close captive lion facilities, put a halt to the intensive breeding of lion in controlled environments, and end the commercial exploitation of captive and captive-bred lions;
• To phase out intensive management and captive breeding of rhinoceros for commercial purposes, and enhance wild populations; and
• To ensure that the use of leopard is sustainable, incentivises and enhances their conservation in the wild.
The Policy Position also proposes three international commercial trade-related policy objectives:
• To promote live export of the five species only to range states or any other appropriate and acceptable destinations with suitable habitats on the African continent;
• South Africa will work with range states and potential destination countries to support a proposal for international commercial trade in rhinoceros horn from protected wild rhinoceros, for conservation purposes, when conditions become favourable; and
• Consider international commercial elephant ivory trade only when conditions become favourable.
Each objective in this Policy Position has associated activities for implementation. By adopting practices that are responsible, legal, sustainable, and promote animal well-being, the implementation of the six Policy Objectives will transform practices within the wildlife industry that are not conducive to animal well-being and promote conservation and sustainable use of biodiversity in general, and these species in particular.
This will enhance South Africa’s position as a megadiverse country and leader in the conservation and sustainable use of these iconic species.

For media queries contact Peter Mbelengwa on 082 611 8197
 

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