8 bore black powder cartridges

[matt85]

I'm looking to load some 8 bore 3.25" cartridges with a ball and black powder. Any recommendations on lubrication? I figure it might be "ok" without any since it won't exactly be shot many times. But, I don't have much experience shooting round balls over black powder from a cartridge.

-Matt

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

I'm surprised no-one has replied to this.
Originals had a wad over powder and a second wad in the form of a donut for the ball to rest in. The second wad was lubricated around the edge with a secretive it seems lube, probably of paraffin/Vaseline/beeswax mixture after the tallow fiasco in India. Of course, I'm just giving the basics here, as the firms that produced them all did it in a variety of ways. In extreme heat, I was always fearful of any lube contaminating the powder, but also fearful of leading. Firing without lube will cause a lot more fouling, but when it's only one shot from one or a pair of barrels at game, it really no longer matters, but I'd let the edge of the second wad soak a tiny amount in, but not so much that in the heat it will migrate downwards. Nobody benchrests all evening with an 8 anyway. I just lightly lube the donut wad if hunting in hot temperatures or a couple shots for fun. Mine is a 12, not an 8, but all the bore rifles using ball work on the same method. A ball does not have much lead around the equator, so it does not actually require a heavy amount of lube in the first place. Use a good hard lube if in above 100F climate. Soak the wad edges in the melted lube and set them aside to dry. You will get leading if using no lube, but it's sort of an experiment in how much you need the wad to soak up, plus what temperatures you will be in. In other words, if you're in the desert, don't bring the Crisco along.

 

[matt85]

I'm surprised no-one has replied to this.
Originals had a wad over powder and a second wad in the form of a donut for the ball to rest in. The second wad was lubricated around the edge with a secretive it seems lube, probably of paraffin/Vaseline/beeswax mixture after the tallow fiasco in India. Of course, I'm just giving the basics here, as the firms that produced them all did it in a variety of ways. In extreme heat, I was always fearful of any lube contaminating the powder, but also fearful of leading. Firing without lube will cause a lot more fouling, but when it's only one shot from one or a pair of barrels at game, it really no longer matters, but I'd let the edge of the second wad soak a tiny amount in, but not so much that in the heat it will migrate downwards. Nobody benchrests all evening with an 8 anyway. I just lightly lube the donut wad if hunting in hot temperatures or a couple shots for fun. Mine is a 12, not an 8, but all the bore rifles using ball work on the same method. A ball does not have much lead around the equator, so it does not actually require a heavy amount of lube in the first place. Use a good hard lube if in above 100F climate. Soak the wad edges in the melted lube and set them aside to dry. You will get leading if using no lube, but it's sort of an experiment in how much you need the wad to soak up, plus what temperatures you will be in. In other words, if you're in the desert, don't bring the Crisco along.

What are you using for the "donut" wad?

Thanks
-Matt

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

I was using a fiber wad from Circle Fly, but now might move to felt if I can find any or may simply cut them myself. I lost the bag of the old ones I had (still an unexplained and mysterious disappearance). I would just use a hole punch, but the recent ones I got are a different fiber material and seem to flake apart and go to pieces when I try it, so you might want to try felt, or I had the idea to punch several layers of felt and then stack them. The bottom wad is simply a Circle Fly unaltered. You might want to use a nitro card wad under the bottom wad as well, but I never use them in my shotguns either, so never felt the need, and some of the cutaway diagrams from back in the day did not have the nitro card in there, so I went without one. The illustration here has what looks to be a rather thin one, but 1/8" would be about right, and I think Circle Fly would have those. And looks to be only one wad, but that just depends on powder charge and how much space should be taken up, so all of this can be experimented with just as a shotgun shell, except for the charge your gun is regulated for if it's a double, and that would have to remain the same in order to shoot to sights. But if using Circle Fly wads, it depends on bore size and inside case diameter, because an 8 could vary from .835 to .875, and usually around .875, and that is the inside case diameter of the cases that Buffalo Arms has. That would be a 7-bore wad for those cases, which Circle Fly makes at .873 diameter. Not sure what the size of your 8 is, because they could vary, but hope this gets you closer.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

P.S.~ the roll crimp....the ball will have to have a 'very' slight roll crimp around its equator, and I do it with a 5/8" brass flare cap in the press, 12-bore fits right in, but I have no idea at all how to do it on an 8-bore case, unless your gun came with its loading tools. You may be able to use a larger flare cap.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

Forgot to add, the fiber wads you split in half and punch. You can't really punch a whole one that is 1/2" thick, so just split it in half with a knife, then punch, and then put back together. Actually, you can just punch one of the halves, then put back together, and the ball will rest and be centered in that sufficiently. The old ones were of a different fiber it seemed, and maybe my new ones are just too dry or something. The rumor was that they had to change the supplier of the fiber they cut them from. You could possibly punch whole ones if using a punch in a drill press as it's spinning and spin the punch through making the hole, but it would be hard to hold them in any safe way unless they are mounted in something. That's how I cut wads for my hammer shotguns before I started using Circle Fly wads, but I used a 7/8" hole saw with the teeth ground off and then sharpened to razor, but I was cutting from whole sheets, so no fingers in danger. Bore rifles, even the smooth rifles, are one of my favorite things in this world, and each one is its own individual. I drooled over a John Wilkes single 4-bore with an octagon barrel for weeks until I felt it necessary to devote time to mowing the yard, or else they come carry me away to a padded room somewhere. I am of course, greatly exaggerating, but you get the idea.

 

[matt85]

@Hagler.450Ex Thank you for the information.

I have a bag of 8 gauge Circle Fly wads and they do seem too dry to attempt to punch a hole in them. But perhaps if I soaked half of one in some lube and then let it harden, it might be easier.

-Matt

 

[camerl2009]

Black powder lube generally is a mix of lard/tallow and beeswax. Depending on what time of year you are shooting ect you can make the lube softer or harder. 50/50 unsalted lard/tallow and beeswax is good for most cartridge applications.

 

[matt85]

Black powder lube generally is a mix of lard/tallow and beeswax. Depending on what time of year you are shooting ect you can make the lube softer or harder. 50/50 unsalted lard/tallow and beeswax is good for most cartridge applications.

I make my own black powder lube using a 70/30 wax/tallow mix. I've heard you can also use engine oil to make it even better.

-Matt

 

[camerl2009]

I make my own black powder lube using a 70/30 wax/tallow mix. I've heard you can also use engine oil to make it even better.

-Matt

Petroleum products and black powder like to make a nasty mess. Extra virgin olive oil will soften it up a bit.

 

[skydiver386]

 

[matt85]

@skydiver386 it's very easy and cheap to make your own. I live in a farming community so both beeswax and tallow were free. I cut a soda can in half and fill with 2 parts wax and 1 part tallow, then put it in the oven (set to low). Stir and then dip projectiles or paper cartridges in the mix. When you are done, simply let the mix harden and repeat the melting process again at a later date.

Best part of making it yourself is that you can adjust the mixture to accommodate the temperature you're going to hunt in.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

I like beeswax and olive oil, 50/50, adjusted up or down for whatever climate one is in. Works good for smokeless as well, up to 1850fps....
But there are millions of lube recipes out there, and it gets to be ridiculous on the forums. The above is about as simple as it gets. The 50/50 is for freezing snowy places, 70/30 is a good place to start as Matt mentioned above, for 65+ temps, and can be made even harder of course.

 

[skydiver386]

Not knowing much about the old 4 and 8 bores, it strikes me as odd that there are no lube grooves in the projectiles. I've tried lube on card wads on reduced loads, but always had problems with contaminating the powder unless the ammo was stored bullet down and fired relatively soon after loading. Are the bullets simply to short to have an effective lube groove on the shank of the bullet?

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

You hit the nail on the head. They are short for caliber. That's one reason. Another, at least from what I gather, is being that they were special use/made and proprietary from different makers, with variations in bore size, there was not a special mold-cherry that the tool and mold maker would be using for a one-off gun and mold, so the simple answer was to bore the mold as one would using a drill, as a lot of molds meant for paper-patching were done. Special mold cherries were made of course for production guns and military, but the cost disadvantage for a single gun was a different thing. H&H made them for their Paradox's, the single groove type, but these were standard production sizes. I could be wrong, but I think that played a large role in it. And with them being short for caliber, as you mentioned, a lubed wad made up for any lack of grooves. But I feel the same, I'm always worried about powder contamination, especially in bad heat, always keeping them pointed downwards when carrying or placing aside in the shade.

 

[matt85]

I haven't seen many original 8-bore bullets. But all the bullets I have seen, have had lube grooves. From what I understand, most 8-bore projectiles ran from 1100-1250gr with 1 or 2 lube grooves. While an 8-bore could fire a ball, it was considered to have poor penetration. A ball would be excellent for practice and would probably be suitable for dangerous game that doesn't require extreme penetration (maybe a buffalo).

A 4-bore typically fired a ball. I would assume (as Hagler said) they would use a lube wad of some sort.

Here is the mold I have for my 8-bore:

 

[camerl2009]

Lubed wads or grease “cookies” could be used all a grease cookie is is a over shot card a layer of BP lube and about her over shot card.

 

[ChrisG]

2 parts Crisco,1 part beeswax and 1 part mineral oil. Heat until melted, blend together and soak your wads in it.

 

[flatwater bill]

In the 1870's a lot of bore rifles shot cartridge/ball loads. There is good info on this in the book "The Paradox" (even though Paradox did not use a ball). Note the heavy jute wad below the ball on the cut-away above......that helps prevent most lube fouling of powder (whether ball or bullet load) during a hot 5 month safari. I load BP a lot, although not an 8 bore, and use a nitro card over powder and thick felt wads in place of jute. @Hagler.450Ex has given some good advice here. BTW....the 8 bore Paradox used a 2 1/2 oz conical bullet backed with 273 grains of powder.....and this is the lightest 8 bore load I have ever seen listed. A 3 oz bullet backed by 328 grains was favored by the famous Count Teleki. Others used the 385 grain charge. These 10, 12 and 14 dram loadings were all relatively standard. After firing such a load, a 2 oz roundball would be a pleasure......best of luck with your loading, hope to see some of your targets one day.....FWB

 

[skydiver386]

A 1093 grain (2 1/2 oz) bullet ahead of 273 grains of powder was considered a light load? Good Golly! Guys today think a .375 H&H is a bit much. My hat is off to anyone that fires such a beast.