The Quality of American Firearms...

[CTDolan]

Capitalism has, as a whole, led us down this path. On the plus side, people can afford things they never could before. On the down side, those things aren’t generally of the same quality of build. Further, business practices continue to follow a course focused on an ever-shorter time span (profits today, at the expense of tomorrow). It’s baked into the system.

America has never been home to a firm realizing guns and rifles on par with that of England and the Continent. It’s just plain fact. We don’t have a Purdey, we don’t have a Westley Richards and we don’t have a Hartmann & Weiss. But, we do have some spectacularly gifted custom gunmakers who create (and/or oversee the creation of) works every bit as wonderful. And, for what it costs, our factories are capable of some pretty damn good results. I mean, $1,200 for the Super Grade pictured above? That’s an amazing level of quality for the price.

 

[wesheltonj]

Capitalism has, as a whole, led us down this path. On the plus side, people can afford things they never could before. On the down side, those things aren’t generally of the same quality of build. Further, business practices continue to follow a course focused on an ever-shorter time span (profits today, at the expense of tomorrow). It’s baked into the system.

America has never been home to a firm realizing guns and rifles on par with that of England and the Continent. It’s just plain fact. We don’t have a Purdey, we don’t have a Westley Richards and we don’t have a Hartmann & Weiss. But, we do have some spectacularly gifted custom gunmakers who create (and/or oversee the creation of) works every bit as wonderful. And, for what it costs, our factories are capable of some pretty damn good results. I mean, $1,200 for the Super Grade pictured above? That’s an amazing level of quality for the price.

Well, we used to have Parker Bros. Shotguns those days are over, it’s all mass produced now.

 

[tarbe]

Gents

The marketplace is pretty efficient...if sometimes a little slow.

If there is demand for a product or service, someone is likely to fill the niche.

The demand here tends to be focused on "just good enough, and as cheap as possible".

Hand-finished is never going to be mainstream again, given modern methods now available, and the cost of skilled human labor. But if that is what you want, you can still get it (thank God).


Tim

 

[tarbe]

Leroy Barry, Canyon Creek Custom Gunstocks. First class wood and metal work.

Exactly. That is my point. If there is demand, there will be supply (however small and seemingly difficult to find!).

 

[CTDolan]

The demand here tends to be focused on "just good enough, and as cheap as possible".

Such has been the trend since WWII, it appears (certainly since the early 1970's). But, thanks to modern technology, in some cases just good enough is even better than before.

 

[tarbe]

Such has been the trend since WWII, it appears (certainly since the early 1970's). But, thanks to modern technology, in some cases just good enough is even better than before.

...or maybe since 1964 (thinking Winchester!).

And I agree that while the aesthetics are often poorer today, modern materials and machining/casting can be pretty good from a functional standpoint.

 

[CTDolan]

...or maybe since 1964 (thinking Winchester!).

And I agree that while the aesthetics are often poorer today, modern materials and machining/casting can be pretty good from a functional standpoint.

That is precisely correct. Handmade firearms carry an individual identity of sorts, one somewhat based upon those whose hands touched the work. Mass-produced firearms have a collective identity, each more or less a copy of every other to go through the same process (and, when the stock is synthetic, they are absolute clones). Whatever aesthetic is present, is present in the design, on paper (or, a computer screen, as it were).

This is the beauty of old guns. Each has a bit of a soul (apart from their time afield, which only adds to the mystique).

 

[tarbe]

This is the beauty of old guns. Each has a bit of a soul (apart from their time afield, which only adds to the mystique).

My Searcy was born in 2005 and it is certainly a one-off in its own way.

If I can manage to refrain from monetizing it to fund other projects it may one day be a family heirloom....the old gun Gramps took to Africa, back when you could hunt dangerous game.

Go now gents, while you still can!

 

[WAB]

My Searcy was born in 2005 and it is certainly a one-off in its own way.

If I can manage to refrain from monetizing it to fund other projects it may one day be a family heirloom....the old gun Gramps took to Africa, back when you could hunt dangerous game.

Go now gents, while you still can!

I couln't agree more. Individualize and tune up your weapons to your own taste and get to Africa and create some history with them!

 

[rookhawk]

The key to this topic is actually not a gun company, it's Louis Vuitton.

There are 3 "luxury brand" companies out there that hold luxury goods from Purdey Guns and Panerei watches (same owner) that have a vision for their brands. The only way to save the really high quality guns is to have them in a portfolio that says "we won't lower our quality, nor our price, and we never target the average middle class customer". That's the only way to save the craftsmanship of gun making as we think of it.

 

[sierraone]

we never target the average middle class customer

And that is never going to change. People like me could never buy a new Purdy if we started saving 20 years ago. I could afford a Panerei watch or a Rigby Big Game (without all the embellishments) if I wanted to give up other things, including hunting other than a local deer camp or dove field. But a new Purdey? No way. The ones I saw on my last trip to London started at nearly 100,000 pounds, about $132,000 by todays exchange rate. I still like to look at them though even when they show wear from hard use! And for the guys that can afford to buy and own Purdys, I am all for you! But I'll stick to M70s and RSMs. Then I can do other things, especially with the grand kids in the outdoors.

About 10 years ago, my son and I were both making big money (by my definition). We both nearly bought Panerei dive watches at a shop in Dallas. Have long forgotten the model name. At that time they were selling for about $7000. We backed out, severely disappointing the sales person who was anticipating a $14000 sale!!!

 

[CTDolan]

I nearly fell over when I saw a pristine Purdey from between for wars selling for 10,000 USD (2-1/2", 12 bore, standard rose and scroll, including case and all accessories). This was perhaps a dozen years ago and it was one hell of a price. I didn't have the money but someone got the deal of a lifetime.

 

[sierraone]

I nearly fell over when I saw a pristine Purdey from between for wars selling for 10,000 USD (2-1/2", 12 bore, standard rose and scroll, including case and all accessories). This was perhaps a dozen years ago and it was one hell of a price. I didn't have the money but someone got the deal of a lifetime.

I believe that a pristine 80 year old Purdy for $10,000, I would have to go collect and sell aluminum cans thrown in the ditches!!!

 

[Dr Ray]

I think a big part of the issue is that a good portion of American shooters want to own several rifles but can't afford several higher end rifles. Just look at the wave of economy rifles: Ruger American, Savage Axis, etc... Couple this with the fact that a lot of people don't hunt or hunt their state's deer season and that's it. Some will make a few out of state hunts and fewer still will go on an African Safari or a high end North American hunt (brown bear, Yukon moose....)
I think those that are avid hunters will have a few higher end rifles. That being said, there is nothing wrong with Remington's, Rugers, Weatherbys or whatever, if it works for you. I have no trouble hunting with my 7mm/08 which is an old Remington 788. Probably one of the most basic and ugliest rifles ever made, but shoots .6" groups all day long.
By the way, I have a Montana 1999 in .338 RUM and I really like it. It puts 225gr Swift AFs under an inch. In fact I like it so much that it will will be with me in Namibia next week. I plan on purchasing Montana rifles in .280 Rem and maybe .375 H&H, or .300 Win mag, or .270, or .338 Win mag, or.....

I have mainly Sakos that have very, very good accuracy. I built a Remington 700 model using a 24 inch medium weight barrel (300 Winchester magnum) and replaced the trigger with a Timney. This rifle would shot the eye out of a gnat.
You cannot generalize and I found that by changing powders etc etc I got excellent accuracy that was good enough for Competition shooting.
I had a friend with a Marlin that was so bad he wrapped it around a tree.
Like cars; sometimes you get a beauty and sometimes a real lemon.
I think in all fairness price is fairly well indicative of the quality and the accuracy.
But! How much accuracy do we really need?
A buffalo rifle / do we really need sub-MOA???

 

[Hogpatrol]

@ Dr Ray, Don't own one but have seen a lot of accurate factory Sakos shooting handloads. Same goes for Howa.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

As requested the other topic that started in this thread was moved to its' own thread: Politics.

 

[todd9.3]

american firearms have gone down quality wise. quantity wise, they are the best. the manufacturers(remington, savage, tc...) can put out a "cheap" gun at a reasonable price, $200-$400, and it will shoot 3 shot/100 yards at 1". safety wise(remington m700 i'm talking to you), they are great. i've heard that some guy sued remington for their m700 safety. i have owned many of m700(adl, bdl and cdl/1970s - 1990s)) and i praise the rifles and the safeties.(gone due to a divorce)

the quality of the rifles has gone downhill. plastic stocks, plastic magazines, plastic whatever. plastic is good for only one thing, women's breasts. i have bought a cheap gun, tc venture in 25-06(about $300) . it would shoot a 1", 5 shots at 100 yards(120gr nosler bt/imr4350). but i sold it and got a tc encore frame.

i have owned/own a remington, winchester, ruger, savage, tc encore and venture and a contender, 1898 springfield armory and some i can't think of. in foreign guns i can only think of two, a custom 98 mauser(7x57) and a husqvarna m46(9.3x57).

as a matter of fact my 1898 springfield armory in 30-40 krag is the best gun i have ever had. number 2 is the husky m46. 3. mauser 98 4. ruger #1 5. tc encore(s, i have two) with MGM barrels and High Plains Gunstocks 6. winchester 7. remington 8.....

now i have shot CZ's, sako's, one H&H double rifle, a gewehr 1888, mosin and a smle. i have shot a weatherby and a kimber and a enfield(30-06). (i used to know a gunsmith, RIP)

Purdy, Rigby, H&H, Merkel....they are way way way above my price list. so i don't own them. but i still like to drool on them!!!

the european style and the american style of shooting is a small thing. i can shoot my winchester m94 standing up or sitting down or i can shoot my husky m46 standing up or sitting down. don't matter which gun, what matters is that i shoot accurately. you can customize a remmy till your wallet falls out, but can you shoot it accurately.

now i luv Montana and Dakota rifles, but they are way above price line too.($500-$1000 is mine)

 

[Hogpatrol]

I agree the stocks/magazines and to a lesser extent, triggers aren't the best but Savage is making rifles that with some carefully made reloads are shooting less than 1/2 moa at 300 meters. A friend of mine bought the Savage target rifle in .204 and shot this five shot group at 300 meters with reloads using 39 grain Blitzkings.

 

[mdwest]

I agree the stocks/magazines and to a lesser extent, triggers aren't the best but Savage is making rifles that with some carefully made reloads are shooting less than 1/2 moa at 300 meters. A friend of mine bought the Savage target rifle in .204 and shot this five shot group at 300 meters with reloads using 39 grain Blitzkings.

View attachment 240660

That is impressive!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The demand here tends to be focused on "just good enough, and as cheap as possible".

That seems to be the case for lots of things these days. Do we blame the suppliers or the buyers?