Schmidt and Bender & other long range scopes

CBH Australia · Nov 29, 2023

pc3 said:
Thankyou. If you could only choose 1 of these two ? Could it be said the SB Exos 1-8 is a little more durable than the Z8 ? I have a couple of their Police Marksmans 5-25's and they are pretty bombproof scopes.

Copied from another thread but I want to know about long range scopes please.

pc3 mentions the S&B scopes being bombproof and NightForce share that reputation.
I expect A&B have better glass but maybe Nightforce have more models and options.
Neither are cheap if you look at mid to high end Nightforce and I've heard about Zero Compromise and there is adealer here for Tangent Theta.
If I could have one, and only one top quality scope for some target work, maybe crossing over into doing a long range shooting course to learn the skills and theory of shooting plates/targets out to 1000 etc. just to improve my knowledge and skills.
Maybe the rifle/scope would do some varminting if opportunity presents.

March scopes are also considered high end and have a dealership here.

I kinda like the idea of S&B but I think they are in 1mil clicks. So that's 10mm at 100 where as a 1/4moa adjustment offers a finer adjustment. That maybe beneficial where I currently shoot a centrefire at 100,150 -200. I don't need a top tier scope for that but I do need a better one
I have a couple of Meopta scopes and used 3-18 Meopta in a range day for work later that day I used my Zeiss Diavari 2.4-10 and felt it was much better and clearer with more definition than the higher magnification

Wyfox · Nov 30, 2023

Schmidt and Benders are great, I've had or still have about every model PM2 they've made. They have way more options and models then Nightforce and much better glass. I've had quite a few Nightforce too. I also have Tangent Theta's.

What are you putting it on? I highly reccomend mils over moa, but its personal preference. All above manufactures offer both. I can help you with any questions you may have.

Osama Mahdi · Nov 30, 2023

Here is the ugly truth
Zero compromise, German glass
Kahles Austerian glass
Schmidt and Bender, German glass( I think)
NightForce
Vortex Razer ( I think Japanese glass)
Burris
Leopold Mark 5
They all very clear and you can't tell a difference. Every one has his own biased.

I do long range shooting and I looked at all of these and more in the range.
I have on my rifles Kahles, Leopold Mark 5, and Burris.
Some differences in the turret and the reticles.

CBH Australia · Nov 30, 2023

Osama Mahdi said:
Here is the ugly truth
Zero compromise, German glass
Kahles Austerian glass
Schmidt and Bender, German glass( I think)
NightForce
Vortex Razer ( I think Japanese glass)
Burris
Leopold Mark 5
They all very clear and you can't tell a difference. Every one has his own biased.

I do long range shooting and I looked at all of these and more in the range.
I have on my rifles Kahles, Leopold Mark 5, and Burris.
Some differences in the turret and the reticles.
View attachment 572089

Interesting. I would have thought entry level models vs high end models the glass or coatings would improve.

I know European glass is highly regarded and my Kahles 8x56 is great for what it is

But, Japan have a good grip on technology so I expect they have the ability to make excellent glass of they choose to.

I have tried to get a confirmation on Swarovski glass as some say it's all the same and o think I have found one post saying that from z6 and up is better glass. But all of this is just from internet sources.

Tucketed · Nov 30, 2023

There are basically 3 optical glass companies in the world today, Schott, Germany etc, Ohara, Japan and CDGM,China. There are others such as Nikon and Corning. All of these glasses are optically equal. If an optical designer goes into the glass library in their design software all of these glasses have equivalent specifications. Scope performance comes from design, manufacturing tolerances and coatings.

Osama Mahdi · Nov 30, 2023

Tucketed said:
There are basically 3 optical glass companies in the world today, Schott, Germany etc, Ohara, Japan and CDGM,China. There are others such as Nikon and Corning. All of these glasses are optically equal. If an optical designer goes into the glass library in their design software all of these glasses have equivalent specifications. Scope performance comes from design, manufacturing tolerances and coatings.

And in Philippine.
I suspect that different companies use the same optical glass company to make their optics.
Maven and Vortex made thier high end products in Japan for example.
Similarly, some AR 15 rifles( parts not necessarily all the rifle) are made in one place and then shipped to different companies and get different brand names.
But overall German and Austerian optic glass are superior. Schmidt and Bender among these superior glass

CBH Australia · Nov 30, 2023

Wyfox said:
Schmidt and Benders are great, I've had or still have about every model PM2 they've made. They have way more options and models then Nightforce and much better glass. I've had quite a few Nightforce too. I also have Tangent Theta's.

What are you putting it on? I highly reccomend mils over moa, but its personal preference. All above manufactures offer both. I can help you with any questions you may have.

Thanks, initially I plan to put it on a .260rem that will come together in a few months time. In the future I might change to .308, maybe .300 wm if I get the big. I'm not considering any of the heavy long range rounds.

I've spoken with a long range instructor who has a pretty good reputation. He is happy to work with what a person has. So he will alternate with mils/moa , reticle types and chamberings.

He said he has used S&B through work but they have turned to Nightforce.

He seems to like the Tremor reticles and says that while some people find them busy you come to appreciate it I guess that's relevant to your training and needs to. I think he likes the holdovers and making wind calls quickly. I'm not against it but I'm not in a tactical situation or even PRS style shooting

I hope to include varminting and maybe some long range pest control. Eg If im capable and equipped I might consider 5-600m

I like the idea of getting a S&B and some models are sub 5k which I think is my upper limit. It seems pretty high at that if I do go there. Some of the others mentioned are $8000 in Australia.

Some Kahles are maybe 4K.

Nightforce range from ~$1500 to ~$8000. It seems the Tremor reticles models jump considerably in there bracket.

A long range hunter who uses and Retails Tangent Theta promotes those and they are probably upwards of $6000.

I've watched YouTube comparisons containing a few of these.

March might come in from $3500.

Some say by higher magnification even if you don't run it all the time. I dont go high on hunting rifles but this scope or question is more intended for target and learning long range .So 4-20, 5-25, 8x32, 12-42, 8-80???????
I'm kind of thinking 30-40 on the high end is enough.
Why are S&B 5-25? Is that enough? I know snipers used to use 10x but times changed and I'm wanting to pick bullet holes, scan the distance and get more definition on my target.
I like the idea of having an S&B but is 5-25 enough?

I'm not opposed to trying a Christmas tree or grid reticle as I want to learn long range skills.

The Kahles target models look good and have turret options to suit your preference. I'm pretty sure the glass/ coatings will be great.

Tangent Theta might be out priced from consideration but the same people sell Delta Optical Stryker .

I like the idea of owning a S&B but which one.

I have a new in box Nightforce 8x32 with 1/8moa adjustment that I am reluctant to mount if I'm looking at others I'm not writing off Nightforce all together as they are up there but is the glass?
One competition shooter said others have better glass but he has never seen a Nightforce fail.

The March distributor has a few listed

I currently use a 4-20 Sightron STac and looked at a second hand Sightron S3.

If I am to buy one more scope I really want to settle on the best thing. The Nightforce I have would be great for the range work I do now at 200m but is it the best to move forward with?

I've probably posed a similar question before but I haven't settled on anything yet and I'm hoping for feedback from people using these scopes in a similar capacity.

Wyfox · Nov 30, 2023

Do you want to use hold overs on the reticle or dial? If you prefer to holdover then the Horus reticles are ok, not my cup of tea as I prefer to dial. I've had the Horus H-59,59, T2, and T3 and just found them too busy. 20-25x is plenty for 95% of long range shooting especially for 1500 meters and less. The 5-25 PM2 was and probably still is the gold standard in long range scopes. Find the reticle which you like most, the new PF5L is really nice and what I'd reccomend with the new DT2 turret. Optically the 3-20x50 standard PM2 is my favorite of all my S&B's. The 5-20 Ultra Shorts are super nice too if you want to keep the size down.

Nightforce left alot to be desired for me, Ive had the 4-16 and 5-25 Atacr and sold them. Glass was just meh and the zero stop was a PIA.

If you want a great crossover scope (hunting/target)the Tangent Theta 3-15M is phenominal, 27oz and sized perfectly for a hunting rifle. I have one on my main hunting 300wm. They should be alot cheaper than the Professional line which is $5-6g US dollars. The only negative is the reticle is pretty small on 3-5x but i just consider it a duplex reticle when turned down and its illuminated if your in low light conditions.

Mtn_Infantry · Nov 30, 2023

I have multiple S&B, NF, Leupold, Swaro, Khales, Zeiss, and Bushnell Elite Tactical scopes. My personal preference, especially for long range is S&B followed by Khales, then the Leupold Mark 5/6 line, the NF Atacr, Bushnell and finally the Leupold Mark 4's. Swaro and Zeiss make great optics with great glass but I prefer them on hunting set-ups due to turrets and reticle options. I prefer mils and find the math easier. I have several "christmas tree" type reticles but find myself going back to a more basic ill. TMR in my later optics purchases as I prefer to dial rather than use holdovers.

If 1000 yards/meters was my goal I'd buy either a used Bushnell Elite Tactical XRS2 or a Leupold Mark 4. I'd then use the savings from the scope for a shitload of gold medal match ammo, range/class time, and a better trigger, barrel, etc. If my goal was further than a grand (which you can easily do with the Leupold Hunting line of scopes like a VX5 3-15 or VX6 3-18) then I'd step-up in optic price/quality.

The largest S&B (magnification wise) I own is a 5-25. I have a 6.5CM, a .308, and a .300WM all wearing S&B PM2 5-25's. I've looked at adding a Mark 5 7-35's to the stable but I'm personally not a fan of the super high magnification, and since rarely shoot over that 15-18 power range, I haven't convinced myself to spend the money. I'll use the top end magnification more when spotting someone than shooting. My reason being, as you go up in magnification you start to notice more movement, and mirage.

CBH Australia · Nov 30, 2023

@Wyfox I've never used a Tremor reticle and the only holdover I've used is in a Meopta 4-12x50 with 3 hash marks. But I haven't used it that way . A lot of shooting was taking pests from the vehicle.

Can you tell me more aboutyiur choice of reticle please.

Tangent Theta jump nearly 2 K when go 5-25. They are not a light scope. As for crossover I think I said it but I'm not really looking to carry it as a hunting rifle as such so not so much that sort of crossover. It's hard to find all the features in one package if you have breakdown what different brands offer.

I get the feeling that S&B have the glass and quality in a decent price point since may exceed this. But their 3-27 is over $7000 here. . To me 3x is for close up and yeah maybe in some military roles they are working the 2 extremes. I have a hunting rifle for the low end but I would like that scope.

@Mtn_Infantry I haven't looked at those model Leupold yet . They are getting up there in Aussie dollars too.

Wyfox · Nov 30, 2023

If you dont need a crossover and dont mind the size the S&B 5-25 will do everything you need.

The S&B 3-27 high power is not ideal for a short action, it would require a cantilever mount as the length from turret to occular is supe long and for the price isnt worth the cost. I have one on a 338 Norma(see below) next to a 5-20 ultra short.

I highly reccomend getting behind a Horus before buying one, you're either going to like it or hate it.

I prefer the P4f, P5f, MSR, MSR2, LRR--Mil reticles in the S&B line.

Here is my top reccomendation.