Powder Selection: I want to be sure I understand the theory

[SaintPanzer]

One of the unfortunate (but worth it, I think) aspects of having a no-longer produced rifle is the need to develop a good load for the rifle in the absence of easily found production cartridges. Fortunately, I have been collecting brass for a while, and I still have my stash of primers.

Powder, however, seems to be "catch as catch can". You never know what will be in stock, and you need to have a good idea of what will work if it is in stock. I "get" that some powders burn faster than others, and are more suited to specific loads, and I understand that programs like QuickLoad can help in narrowing down loads that might work. I just want to make sure I understand what may help start the process.

In this case, I'm going to focus on my 6.5X54 MS rifle, with the 450mm (17.7") barrel. CIP specs will give me a maximum load, and I'm going to stick with one bullet to "make all other things equal". Bullet chosen is the 160 grain Woodleigh RNSP. The only variable I'm going to change is powder, and even there, to keep things reasonable (i.e. not too many choices) is to consider Vihta Vouri powders. Comparisons are done in QuickLoad. If it helps the discussion, Woodleigh lists only 8 powders in their manual, and I haven't seen them in stock in an awful long time.

To be clear: I understand that these are "estimates", and are no substitution for working up a safe load. I also understand that published loads are better, but also know that not every powder company has tested their powders in this cartridge, and published data lists powders that are not always available. Additionally, there are some bullet manufacturers who provide bullets, but leave the load data up to the powder companies. When I run out of my supply of Woodleighs, I may need to switch to Hawks, and then where will I be? Here, we are working only in theory. No one is pulling the trigger on these loads without going through a safe process.

VV lists several powders as being "slow burning and suitable for heavier bullets". But which would be most appropriate?

To condense my notes I'm going to compare N150, N160, N165, N550, and N560 at either maximum pressure (Pmax of 52940 psi) or full case without a compressed load.

Based on the QL estimates, for N150, I can load 37.2 grains of powder and be at maximum load, hits 2208 fps, fills the case to 93.2%, and burning 100% of the powder.
For N160, 39.2 grains hits max load, hits 2308 fps, fills 90.8% of the case, and burns 99.28% of the powder.
For N165, 41.8 grains is below max load hitting 2208 fps, fills 99.9% of the case, and burns 94.32% of the powder. More powder will keep within pressures, but will be a compressed load, and it's not going to burn that powder in the barrel anyway.
For N550, 39.2 grains is max load at 2334 fps, fills 90.7% of the case, and burns 99.2% of the powder.
For N560, 43.2 grains is below max load at 2339 fps, fills 99.9% of the case, and burns 92.21% of the powder. More powder will keep within pressures, but will be a compressed load, and it's not going to burn that powder in the barrel anyway.

So, depending on the powder, keeping pressures safe and speed about where it needs to be, I can fill the case but not burn it all, or I can leave some space in the case and not "waste" powder by sending unburned powder out the barrel with the bullet. Those powders that do not completely fill the case will exceed max pressure with a greater fill.

Looking at the above, my first choice should probably be N150, leaving some space in the case but burning it all, followed by N550 filling slightly less and burning slightly less and tied with N160.

Am I looking at this the right way? Or am I missing something important? Obviously, you don't want "too little" powder in the case, but filling it and sending unburned powder out doesn't make sense either.

 

[Alistair]

You're looking at it correctly IMO.

The things you're trying to balance are pressure (velocity), case fill and burn rate.

Some very ballpark figures for you:

Good burn: 95%+, ideally 99%+.
Good fill: 80%+, ideally 85-98%. Anything above 98% is a (potential) compressed load risk depending on seating depth - this is a long bullet. That doesn't necessarily make it dangerous and many book loads are compressed, but it might suggest caution.
Pressure - keep it below max, let velocity attained guide your decisions here. I would be nervous below 2000, or above 2350.

Of these factors, I'd be more concerned about unburnt powder or high pressure, than a slightly low case fill. So long as it's not drastically below 80%, anyway.

Based on what you describe above and the 160gr bullet, N160 seems the best balance of the three for your application. For a lighter bullet, I'd move to N150.

Be aware that N550 and N560 are double base powders. They're intended to be fairly similar in application to 150 and 160, but provide more velocity for a given max pressure. HOWEVER, they burn hotter and will increase barrel wear, so unless you 'need' more velocity, then I'd avoid in this application. If you DO want more velocity, then N550 is a good option.

Beyond that, the usual caveats exist.

Start low (if no loading data available, start maybe 10-15% below these powder fills at around 32-34gr). If this is new to you, maybe do the load development with someone who is experienced with wildcat / non 'book' load development and be careful for both poor case obturation on the low end (lots of powder residue down the sides of the case), and excessive pressure signs on the high end (flat primers, excessive velocities, stiff extraction, ejector marks, incipient case head separation marks etc).

You can also reference the data for the 6.5x55 for guidance on powder choices as they're relatively similar case designs: https://www.nosler.com/65-55-swedish-mauser
Obviously DO NOT simply pick powder charge weights from that data, but it's a decent reference for powder selection, fill levels etc.

This data from Viht on 6.5CM may also be a useful guide with the heavier bullets. Again, DO NOT just use these charge weights, but only as a guide to powders: https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloadin...wboy-action-shooting/#/metrics/1/95/-1/-1/156

This kinda thing can be rewarding, but please be safe!

 

[Rafiki]

you might consider looking at AmmoGuide.com; there are 30 loads for the 6.5x54 MS listed.

6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer - AmmoGuide Interactive

The first SERIOUS reloading manual on the web.

ammoguide.com

 

[Rafiki]

you might consider looking at AmmoGuide.com; there are 30 loads for the 6.5x54 MS listed.

6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer - AmmoGuide Interactive

The first SERIOUS reloading manual on the web.

ammoguide.com

Should have said "use caution and good sense". For the most part what's posted on this site are hand-loaders receipts. I do quite a bit of handloading of the obscure and found Ammo Guide helpful which is a gracious way of saying "don't trust and always verify". I find it useful as a starting point.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Thanks, yes, it's a long bullet, but most of it is outside the brass. It also needs to be loaded fairly long to properly feed through the magazine. But it's good to know I'm on the right track.

Yes, Ammoguide has some good stuff... but not always every powder...

 

[Hunter4752001]

It's been my experience that many powder companies have data for cartridges that they don't include in their published data. This is especially so for obsolete or low demand cartridges. How ever they will often supply that data or advice if requested. Maybe send an email to Vihtavouri and ask. If they can't help then nothing lost, if they have data then it could solve some of your concerns.

 

[Rafiki]

THe only variable I'm going to change is powder, and even there, to keep things reasonable (i.e. not too many choices) is to consider Vihta Vouri powders.

Propellant availability has been a huge issue for some time now; Allient, Hodgson, Accurate, they all seem almost non-existent on the shelves at least in my area; that's why I'm curious about your particular powder choice, is that plentiful "somewhere west of Laramie"? I know Vihta is nowhere to be found where I get my stuff.

 

[flatwater bill]

This massive 160 grainer.....as long as a pencil, is what made the 6.5x54 such a killer. Great choice. Most of what wears a throat is powder burning ahead of the case......huge cases with a tiny bore and combustion in the barrel. Not a problem with the little 54 and the heavy, hard to start 160 grainer. Lots of time for combustion in the case. FWIW......and not translating to your powder choices, my load for the rifle was 40 grains of 4350 and a 140 grainer. (40/40) For the Carbine with 18"bbl accuracy required changing to 4064 or 4320............some good advice here by @Alistair, Be sure to measure your SD to see what your load delivers as well as the more obvious parameters.................have fun with this little powerhouse.....FWB

 

[dchamp]

Some other powders that, may or may not be available, look interesting are:
H4350
IMR4350
IMR4831
Ramshot Hunter
VV N555
Acc4350
and maybe W760 & H414

QL is showing a case volume of 50.0gr’s H2o and a COAL of 3.063”. If yours is different be sure to make those adjustments.

 

[poco]

37gns of IMR4350 powering a 160gn Hornady RN Interlock bullet & Rem. 9 1/2 primers. Total OAL of 2.944"
2300 fps

 

[cmk]

A chronograph is always handy as well, as it could tell you when to stop. Even if theory says X grains will give you Y fps, in your rifle, you could find that you reach that velocity somewhere below X. That would indicate that the pressure is already up there.

 

[SaintPanzer]

It's been my experience that many powder companies have data for cartridges that they don't include in their published data. This is especially so for obsolete or low demand cartridges. How ever they will often supply that data or advice if requested. Maybe send an email to Vihtavouri and ask. If they can't help then nothing lost, if they have data then it could solve some of your concerns.

Yes, contacted them some time ago. They said N160 would be an appropriate choice, but they hadn't actually tested it.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Propellant availability has been a huge issue for some time now; Allient, Hodgson, Accurate, they all seem almost non-existent on the shelves at least in my area; that's why I'm curious about your particular powder choice, is that plentiful "somewhere west of Laramie"? I know Vihta is nowhere to be found where I get my stuff.

It's not always available, but what I've noticed (and this includes online) is everyone is used to Alliant, Hogden IMR, etc. Many will pass on VV because they haven't used it and don't know a lot about it. I do like VV because it burns very clean. I've had good luck with it in my pistols and my 30-06. I had a great load with N160 and RWS bullets in the 30-06, but that was when I was in Germany and RWS bullets were plentiful. I've brought some home with me, but when they are out...

Of course, I'm willing to do the math on other similar burn rate powders and grab what's available when I see it.

 

[SaintPanzer]

37gns of IMR4350 powering a 160gn Hornady RN Interlock bullet & Rem. 9 1/2 primers. Total OAL of 2.944"
2300 fps

IMR4350. As long as I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony...

 

[Alistair]

It's not always available, but what I've noticed (and this includes online) is everyone is used to Alliant, Hogden IMR, etc. Many will pass on VV because they haven't used it and don't know a lot about it. I do like VV because it burns very clean. I've had good luck with it in my pistols and my 30-06. I had a great load with N160 and RWS bullets in the 30-06, but that was when I was in Germany and RWS bullets were plentiful. I've brought some home with me, but when they are out...

Of course, I'm willing to do the math on other similar burn rate powders and grab what's available when I see it.

Viht stuff is more popular in Europe I think. A lot of folks, including myself, used it back in the UK as it was cheap, readily available and REACH compliant. Over here in the US it seems less common, possibly due to less favorable import duties or supply vs domestic stuff or something.

Either way, it's solid powder, it seems pretty consistent, I never had any complaints and a lot of very good competition guys used it in stuff like 6.5x47 with success.

 

[SaintPanzer]

A chronograph is always handy as well, as it could tell you when to stop. Even if theory says X grains will give you Y fps, in your rifle, you could find that you reach that velocity somewhere below X. That would indicate that the pressure is already up there.

Have a Labradar, and will use it. Yes, watch for signs. But again, keeping under max pressure, is it better to fill the case, or burn all the powder before it leaves the barrel? Sounds like burn is better.

Off, but related topic: Going off German law for Hochwild: 2000 Joules at 100m, min 6.5mm. Fun math:

For a 160 grain RN bullet, you need about 2300 fps leaving the muzzle to retain the energy at 100m.
Using Woodleigh's PP bullet, which has a much better BC, you only need 2150 at the muzzle. BUT you need to load long to feed well. Otherwise, you have a very nice single shot rifle.

Drop to a 140 grain bullet which also has a better BC, you can get a little more muzzle velocity with the lighter bullet, and the BC retains the speed and thus the energy. Hence, the 140 grain is legal for Hochwild, but the 160 may not be. The sad thing is the 6.5X54 is more than enough due to the great sectional density... but the maths don't work, and the law is based on the math.

None of which will matter to the average white tail.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Viht stuff is more popular in Europe I think. A lot of folks, including myself, used it back in the UK as it was cheap, readily available and REACH compliant. Over here in the US it seems less common, possibly due to less favorable import duties or supply vs domestic stuff or something.

Either way, it's solid powder, it seems pretty consistent, I never had any complaints and a lot of very good competition guys used it in stuff like 6.5x47 with success.

Yes, violent agreement. And I've noticed that for whatever reason (marketing, funny sounding, not invented here, whatever) it tends to sit on the shelf when others are long gone. That's sad, because it works well, but good if you're willing to use it when others pass it by.

 

[Nevada Mike]

I consider it a blessing that (due to its slightly higher price and unfamiliarity) VV powders are often available when others are not. I use N-150 and N-560 particularly with good results in several cartridges.

 

[Rafiki]

I got curious about N-560 because of this thread so in QL I substituted that for what I was playing with, Ramshot Big Game; this is for a 375 H&H. N-560 must be pretty bulky in comparison. Although the simulations came out relatively the same the load ratio was just slightly over 100% for the same charge. There could be an issue in QL's powder file of course.

 

[Alistair]

I got curious about N-560 because of this thread so in QL I substituted that for what I was playing with, Ramshot Big Game; this is for a 375 H&H. N-560 must be pretty bulky in comparison. Although the simulations came out relatively the same the load ratio was just slightly over 100% for the same charge. There could be an issue in QL's powder file of course.

N560 is probably too slow a powder to be a good match for 375H&H. That's probably why you're using so much powder. I'm assuming burn %age is a little low as well.

I used N150 with success in my 375.

N140 or N540 would also be good Viht options to explore.

N560 would work well in most overbore ultramag rounds like RUMs etc though.