Planning a Double rifle

[Tigerman]

( meat and potatos 4 paragraphs down)
Hi all, short-time lurker but long-time admirer of the craft. My “obsession” (not a word chosen by me) began in my late teens with the book Double Barrel, by Norbert Klups, and over the years has percolated into something tangible. However, book learning and idle mathematic sketching fall short of the monumental experience this forum has displayed to me.

In my head, I began to see the shape of the rifle take form. I found the .444 marlin as a desirable choice when I discovered SIACE, as I have a ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter for both real and sillhouette targets, and the thought of having hard castable bullets for either the revolver or the rifle was appealing. I desired this rifle to be able to take up to Bison/Water Buffalo and down to big Texas Hogs.

I soon discovered that Marlin, in originially designing the .444, they woefully underpowered it, until some internet digging uncovered some articles on Beartooth bullets (now defunct) had some experience on heavy & fast marlin loadings. Similar digging found that a shooter on the marlin forums developed a “Safari Grade” .444 by backing out the heavy 405 gr bullets by .100 of an Inch. This led to a Taylor KO of 53. A ray of hope from on high.

Now, on to accuracy. I have read on the rule of 75%, and figured that 320gr down to 240 grain works, but my concerns lay with loading up to 125% of the bullet weight at 400 grains. The starting point for regulation is a stuck point for me, and I am unsure if SIACE would even accomodate me supplying my own ammo for regulation.

My main questions are so-
What is the general consensus on the SIACE Alaska model?
Is there a 125% rule to go along with the 75%, or is there a good option to loading down from 400 grain to 240?
How well do Doubles work with Hardcast?
Is it unheard of to supply your own loading for regulation?
What does importation from Italy to the US look like?

Thank you all for your time, knowledge and consideration. And thank yall for keeping the dream alive

 

[Aaron N]

I’d hate to see a guy choose a double rifle caliber because he has bullets available. If your heart is set on the .444, then go for it, but your resale market will be quite limited.

If you like the Alaska, I would strongly consider the 9.3x74R, it will handle any of the game you have listed in a more desirable caliber and more options for ammunition.

I know this doesn’t answer any of your questions, but it could be some good for thought.

 

[Aaron N]

Are you also known as @tygersman1

 

[Tigerman]

@Aaron N
Thank you for the first reply and the advice. I have not put much thought into resale, is this a common consideration?
As far as other names, this is my first post on the forum as I have started lurking the website ~2 weeks ago on a hunt for info on down-loading and up-loading based on a known regulated load.

 

[BeeMaa]

For the price of commissioning a SIACE rifle, you could buy a proper (used) double rifle in 450-400NE 3" without the worry of resale or finding ammo. There are a few doubles on GB right now from VC and Heym that would fit the bill nicely. You will also be able to fire 400 grain bullets to your hearts content without fear of overpressure.

There is a reason that you are having a hard time finding a 444MARLIN double rifle, there are very few of them because it's just not that common. Hence the caution given about resale. If you buy the 450/400NE and download it, you can have 444MARLIN performance and still sell the gun if/when you loose interest.

 

[Aaron N]

It never hurts to hedge your bets against something catastrophic happening in your life that requires you to raise some money.

 

[Rare Breed]

( meat and potatos 4 paragraphs down)
Hi all, short-time lurker but long-time admirer of the craft. My “obsession” (not a word chosen by me) began in my late teens with the book Double Barrel, by Norbert Klups, and over the years has percolated into something tangible. However, book learning and idle mathematic sketching fall short of the monumental experience this forum has displayed to me.

In my head, I began to see the shape of the rifle take form. I found the .444 marlin as a desirable choice when I discovered SIACE, as I have a ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter for both real and sillhouette targets, and the thought of having hard castable bullets for either the revolver or the rifle was appealing. I desired this rifle to be able to take up to Bison/Water Buffalo and down to big Texas Hogs.

I soon discovered that Marlin, in originially designing the .444, they woefully underpowered it, until some internet digging uncovered some articles on Beartooth bullets (now defunct) had some experience on heavy & fast marlin loadings. Similar digging found that a shooter on the marlin forums developed a “Safari Grade” .444 by backing out the heavy 405 gr bullets by .100 of an Inch. This led to a Taylor KO of 53. A ray of hope from on high.

Now, on to accuracy. I have read on the rule of 75%, and figured that 320gr down to 240 grain works, but my concerns lay with loading up to 125% of the bullet weight at 400 grains. The starting point for regulation is a stuck point for me, and I am unsure if SIACE would even accomodate me supplying my own ammo for regulation.

My main questions are so-
What is the general consensus on the SIACE Alaska model?
Is there a 125% rule to go along with the 75%, or is there a good option to loading down from 400 grain to 240?
How well do Doubles work with Hardcast?
Is it unheard of to supply your own loading for regulation?
What does importation from Italy to the US look like?

Thank you all for your time, knowledge and consideration. And thank yall for keeping the dream alive

Please forgive me but when I saw this post for a double rifle a 444 does not come to mind whatsoever. Just curious…I am guessing you are not dreaming of Africa which is okay

 

[Tigerman]

@BeeMaa
Thank you for the gunbroker leads. I am not so much concerned with overpressure, as I did a fair amount of sleuthing into what the .444 marlin is capable of, especially if the COL is extended by .100 in. Flat Top, the man whose work on the .444 gave me my inspiration, was flinging 405 grains at 2160 out of a Marlin 1895, with modifications mainly on the throat for the COL and feeding for the extended COL. My main concern is whether to have the rifle regulated at 320gr or 400gr bullets, and seeking guidance on either loading up from a regulated round or loading down past the 75% bullet weight point.

@Aaron N
Thankfully I have wasted money on many more foolish ventures that will be easier to liquidate than this. I was hoping that the combo pair of this rifle and my ruger blackhawk would be something passed down through the family like my fathers luger, only sold on pain of disinheriting lol.

@Rare Breed
I saw it as something more versatile than a standard big bore double, which does not entirely take Africa out of the question depending on what bullet weight I rest on, but I have no illusions that this would be a “stopping rifle”. Regardless, a 405 grain bullet going 2160 fps sounds good on paper. My references for this load are by Flat Top of marlin owners and shooters forum, found by googling SG 444 marlin.

 

[Woodcarver]

For similar, but (much) better, performance on what you indicated was your likely quarry, a double in 45-70 would be a better choice than the 444 Marlin. Or go with the 9.3x74R as @Aaron N suggested (even better performance). I have one of each and enjoy shooting both. As doubles go, these calibers can be acquired already in the US for significantly less than what you'll end up spending on importing a Siace in a custom caliber. Either of those calibers will also eliminate the issue of resale if such is needed.
Doubles can be finicky, or not, when it comes to adjusting loads up or down. It is gun specific, not based on caliber or maker. Same with accuracy, and what your expectations are; they ain't a bolt gun, but can be very accurate if you work with them as what they are.
Welcome to the forum, and the addiction! Good luck and have fun!

 

[Aaron N]

The heart wants what the heart wants, and at the end of the day you’re the only one who needs to be satisfied with your decision!

It looks like Griffen and Howe had a new 7x65R in at some point, maybe they can put you on the right path for importation and costs.

 

[CD24]

get a BFR and 45-70 double.

 

[Rare Breed]

@BeeMaa
Thank you for the gunbroker leads. I am not so much concerned with overpressure, as I did a fair amount of sleuthing into what the .444 marlin is capable of, especially if the COL is extended by .100 in. Flat Top, the man whose work on the .444 gave me my inspiration, was flinging 405 grains at 2160 out of a Marlin 1895, with modifications mainly on the throat for the COL and feeding for the extended COL. My main concern is whether to have the rifle regulated at 320gr or 400gr bullets, and seeking guidance on either loading up from a regulated round or loading down past the 75% bullet weight point.

@Aaron N
Thankfully I have wasted money on many more foolish ventures that will be easier to liquidate than this. I was hoping that the combo pair of this rifle and my ruger blackhawk would be something passed down through the family like my fathers luger, only sold on pain of disinheriting lol.

@Rare Breed
I saw it as something more versatile than a standard big bore double, which does not entirely take Africa out of the question depending on what bullet weight I rest on, but I have no illusions that this would be a “stopping rifle”. Regardless, a 405 grain bullet going 2160 fps sounds good on paper. My references for this load are by Flat Top of marlin owners and shooters forum, found by googling SG 444 marlin.

Ah…thanks for the clarification! Now understand. Wish you success!

 

[Tigerman]

@Woodcarver and @Rare Breed
thank you for the well wishes!

@CD24

BFR, .444 Marlin Revolver, 10" Barrel, Stainless Steel

shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Aaron N
Would you happen to have a link to the G&H page?

 

[tygersman1]

Are you also known as @tygersman1

Hi Aaron:

“Tigerman” is not the one and only Tygersman1

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Baikal?

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

A few days ago on the Forum there were two Sabatti doubles at Midway USA one was a .470 N the other was a .450-.400. The price was about $7,500.00. In my opinion one hell of a good price. For the visiting hunter and first time double I would go with the .450-.400 3".

 

[Tintin]

There is a circa 1907 Watson Brothers now in .444 Marlin for sale in Australia at present (It's listed on ozgunsales dot com)

 

[Major Bonkers]

Tigerman, I wish you well in your eccentric quest. I reiterate the point that others have made, that it is an appalling investment, but along as you go into this with your eyes open, that's down to you.

Most of your questions ought to be directed to SIACE. I just pause here to point out that a rifle from a pretty-well unknown maker will have very limited resale value. Anyway, you are the client and can do what you want. As they are presumably looking to make a sale, they should look after you.

Personally, I can't see anything wrong with cast bullets - again, raise it with the maker - but avoid monolithic bullets.

I have absolutely no experience with this manufacturer. However, the Alaska model seems to be based on well-established design principles. I expect that it will be made on CAD/ CAM machines, so it ought to be robust enough. Important: check the balance of the rifle, which will vary with calibre.

The way that you are going about things is probably the cheapest way. You could save some money by buying a barrelled action in the white from them, importing that, and then stocking it and bluing it closer to home.

If you want to spend a bit more money, you might get it engraved at Creative Art. You could also approach Mayfair Engineering, who might be prepared to make you up a suitable double rifle action, although you would then have the problem of dealing with the barrel regulation.

As a rule of thumb, count on doubling the base cost of your rifle for shipping and import duties. Moving rifles in Europe is a costly nightmare now: after the Bataclan attack, the EU has considerably tightened up regulation around firearms. Our Muslim neighbours now drive lorries into crowds instead.

 

[AZDAVE]

I owned a find Siace double in 45/70 a number of years ago and it was a beautiful double that shot very well. I went through all the thoughts you are currently going through on a MUCH more powerful loaded 444. You run into several problems along the way.
1. Most builders will only use factory ammo for regulation.
2. The pressure levels you will have to run to get the the speeds in levergun will exceed those of the double rifle platform or will be on the ragged edge of overpressure. (I went through those with 45/70)
3. There are many double in 9.3x74 and 450/400 out there that will meet the requirements you have laid out.

My suggestion is go to DSC or SCI and talk to all the double rifle companies and some of the resellers. Handle the doubles and then start a plan to acquire one in a more appropriate caliber than the .444, that fits you and will give a couple generations of service to you and your family.

 

[crs]

There have many constructive suggestions made in the above comments. They should help you to make a decision that will satisfy your needs and met your objectives.
I have handled the Siace double rifle at a couple of gun shows and almost bought one some years ago. That goes for a couple of other brands also. Why did I not buy back then?
Number 1 was that there was no sense of urgency as I already had two big bore lever guns that were proven in Africa.
Number 2, was that I am a shooter of Parker SxS shotguns and have been for many years and I wanted a double rifle that worked for me as well as my Parkers do; a tall order.

It may come as no surprise that the solution was custom made double rifles in the two desired calibers: .405 WINCHESTER AND .45-90! The calibers were well proven in the USA and Africa by others and myself and when I found what I wanted, I knew it and made the buy.
In case you have not already figured it out, resell value means nothing to me (even though my Parkers have appreciated dramatically) and I am not known for hopping on to the latest fad as in 6.5 Creed or the latest fad in 9.XX anything MM.
Stick with your requirements and Good Hunting!