Old bullets = "fragile" ?

[Longwalker]

I was reading some articles published by the excellent "Ballistic Studies" folks in New Zealand. The author mentioned something that I had never read before. He claimed that very old bullets (stored for a few decades) may have changes to the core or jacket that cause the bullets to expand quicker / fragment more. Can this be verified? What would be the reason? Is it a significant difference?

I have quite a few bullets in my reloading stash that were purchased from estates and such. Some, like the 7mm 175 gr. RN are a style not easy to find since most manufacturers have quit making that style, but my 7x57 shoots the old style heavy RN bullets best. Same with some of my .375 bullets, 9.3's and some .308" too. Makes me a bit wary of using those old bullets on game.

What is your experience?

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I would guess that storage conditions would have a lot to do with any degrading integrity.
However I doubt that one would ever be able to tell the difference. I

 

[Shako Badhan]

I have no personal experience with the issue but I have heard of it on a number of occasions. My understanding is that over time there is a chemical reaction between the different metals in a bullet that can cause it to weaken.

The case I remember most vividly is that a elephant hunt that went a bit sideways after the vintage 500 NE solid bullets broke up on impact. The cause was determined to be the very old solids.

 

[baxterb]

Don’t quote me but I believe brass/copper become brittle with time. But i think a few decades is young.

 

[CJW]

I've seen old lead fishing weights get brittle to the point of shattering when struck with a hammer. Different composition? Maybe. Exposure to the elements thus degrading the lead has been my first guess though.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Don’t quote me but I believe brass/copper become brittle with time. But i think a few decades is young.

There seems to be such a phenomenon as "season cracking", which was known to happen in British India on occasion (and likely in other places too).

Apparently in copper or alloys containing copper (like brass), exposure to ammonia can cause a chemical reaction that affects the residual stress in the cartridge casings. In some instances, ammunition was stored in stables to keep it safe during the monsoon season and the amount of ammonia from the horse urine was causing this chemical reaction that resulted in deep cracks all down the casings, and that over a relatively short amount of time. Seems the issue can be solved or abated by proper annealing during the casing-making process, though, and under normal circumstances that don't involve being in close proximity to considerable amounts of ammonia, it should take a fairly long time for any issues to set in.

My guess is that if it's a copper-heavy solid, some kind of exposure to ammonia could result in similar cracking issues over time, at least a couple decades, or if it was improperly made or stored...

As for lead, I know I've seen examples where exposure to SOMETHING caused it to become brittle, but I can't remember for the life of me where or what...

 

[Bonk]

All the physics/chemical concerns noted above may be true but I suspect it might have something to do with a lot of shooter's obsession with speed. Those older bullets were designed to work at more reasonable velocities. Push them too hard and you get some of the issues the OP mentioned.

 

[dchum]

DuPont sold Remington in 1993. So this is round is at least 30 years old. 150 grain core lokt in 30/06. No different than how a new production would react in im being honest.

 

[Rule 303]

I have heard of Copper hardening over time so becoming brittle. What that time period is I know not. What environmental substance may have affected this I know not.

It is an interesting subject. I wonder if any scientific studies have been done on metal hardening and what metals they are.

 

[Hunter4752001]

I am somewhat sceptical about claims of brass/copper going brittle with age alone. I do know that our military ammo was designed to be fully safe for use, if stored properly, even after decades of storage. In days gone past it was practice to have extensive 'war reserves' of ammunition in storage in case of the need for a general mobilisation. I believe it was as late as the 1980s when our .303 ammo was release from 'war reserve' storage and sold off. I'm still using some 7.62x51 L2A2 cases from the 70s.

In respect of ammonia: Yes ammonia will be disastrous for brass. It leaches the copper from the brass causing it to fail. One of the reason you should never add ammonia based brass cleaner to your polishing media.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I was reading some articles published by the excellent "Ballistic Studies" folks in New Zealand. The author mentioned something that I had never read before. He claimed that very old bullets (stored for a few decades) may have changes to the core or jacket that cause the bullets to expand quicker / fragment more. Can this be verified? What would be the reason? Is it a significant difference?

I have quite a few bullets in my reloading stash that were purchased from estates and such. Some, like the 7mm 175 gr. RN are a style not easy to find since most manufacturers have quit making that style, but my 7x57 shoots the old style heavy RN bullets best. Same with some of my .375 bullets, 9.3's and some .308" too. Makes me a bit wary of using those old bullets on game.

What is your experience?

@Longwalker
I have used 250gn Hornady round nose that were a few decades old and the oryx I shot didn't complain despite the fact he didn't have much left in the way of lungs, his shoulder was broken and he had a golf ball size hole out the other side.
Don't get me wrong Nathan is a very very knowledgeable man and may be right.
BUT I think it would depend on the way they are stored. If in the original packaging in a dry environment it would say they would be fine. If the lead tips and cup are showing signs of oxidation then that may be a different story.
I have even been known to vacuum pack packets of projectiles to keep them in better condition if I'm storing them for a long time. Seems to help in my often humid area.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

There seems to be such a phenomenon as "season cracking", which was known to happen in British India on occasion (and likely in other places too).

Apparently in copper or alloys containing copper (like brass), exposure to ammonia can cause a chemical reaction that affects the residual stress in the cartridge casings. In some instances, ammunition was stored in stables to keep it safe during the monsoon season and the amount of ammonia from the horse urine was causing this chemical reaction that resulted in deep cracks all down the casings, and that over a relatively short amount of time. Seems the issue can be solved or abated by proper annealing during the casing-making process, though, and under normal circumstances that don't involve being in close proximity to considerable amounts of ammonia, it should take a fairly long time for any issues to set in.

My guess is that if it's a copper-heavy solid, some kind of exposure to ammonia could result in similar cracking issues over time, at least a couple decades, or if it was improperly made or stored...

As for lead, I know I've seen examples where exposure to SOMETHING caused it to become brittle, but I can't remember for the life of me where or what...

@WebleyGreene455
Fortunately I don't own horses, clean anything with ammonia or pee on my brass or projectiles I should be fine
Ha ha ha ha ha
The old corrosive primers were murder on cases even if wash after firing. Reloading old 303 Brit cases that used corrosive primers you only got 1 more load out of them. Thank God for non corrosive primers..
I think as you said proper storage plays a big part in it.
I've seen projectiles that were green from chemical reactions from being stored in a shed. Even if they were cleaned up I WOULDN'T use them. I know those that did and had problems.
Bob

 

[WebleyGreene455]

I've seen projectiles that were green from chemical reactions from being stored in a shed.

Way back when jacketed bullets were still pretty new and innovative, Spain used brass-jacketed bullets in their .43 Spanish. They done turned green from verdigris and some folks suspected they were trying to make the bullets "poisonous" to infect wounds n such. Apparently they still worked alright, though, once they were given a cleaning when taken out of storage.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Winchester Super-X 175Gr Soft Points For 7x57mm Mauser manufactured in 1983 and imported by TCB (Trading Corporation Bengal) in 1985.
Note: Visible deformation on some of the noses occurring due to projectiles repeatedly slamming into the magazine walls during recoil.

Prvi Partizan 196Gr Soft Points For 8x57mm Mauser Brought Into The Country In 1972.

Kynoch 220Gr Round Nosed Steel Jacketed FMJ Solids For .30-06 Springfield manufactured between 1962-1969 and brought into the country prior to 1970.
Note: Originally Berdan primed, but I modified the cases to accept the more easily available Boxer primer when re-priming them.

Remington Peters 180Gr Core Lokt For .300 Savage manufactured in 1945 and i imported into the country in 1947.
Note: Reprimed

Winchester Super-X 300Gr Flat Nosed Lubaloy Jacketed FMJ Solids For .375 Holland & Holland Magnum manufactured prior to 1982 and brought into the country in 1983.

Eley Brothers 440Gr Lead Semi Hollow-Points For .500 Black Powder Express 3" manufactured prior to 1904 and brought into the country prior to 1908.
Note: The cases which were still intact had to be re-primed and have a fresh charge of coarse grained black powder put in.

I’ve hunted with all of the above photographed vintage ammunition in recent years. In all cases, the bullets still performed satisfactorily. Living in a third world country where centerfire rifle ammunition isn’t easy to come by, we scourge up whatever ammunition/reloading components that we can get our hands on. As the old adage goes, “Beggars can’t be choosers.”

 

[CJW]

I was just on GI and saw someone selling some old soft point Kynoch ammo. The exposed lead looked oxidized just like the fishing weights that I described above did. No way I would shoot those or any similar looking bullets at an animal. No telling what that bullet would do when striking hide and bone.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I have heard of Copper hardening over time so becoming brittle. What that time period is I know not. What environmental substance may have affected this I know not.

It is an interesting subject. I wonder if any scientific studies have been done on metal hardening and what metals they are.

@Rule 303
Not to derail the thread but I have a couple of old knives that you can make razor sharp. Even WITHOUT any use and just left in the sheath they are blunt within a month. They would cut worth a damn, yet were razor sharp before storage.

 

[Rule 303]

@Rule 303
Not to derail the thread but I have a couple of old knives that you can make razor sharp. Even WITHOUT any use and just left in the sheath they are blunt within a month. They would cut worth a damn, yet were razor sharp before storage.

Bob I have had similar experience.

Back on track. I had some Highland 375H&H brass that went brittle, developed case cracks, verdigris and when cleaned there were holes in the brass. I had had the ammo about 10 years, stored in their factory boxes and keep with the rest of my ammo. No other ammo, including 303, 375H&H from other companies that were as old or older was affected like this. I have no idea why this happened. I do suspect there was a manufacturing fault in making the brass or somewhere in its tracks to my possession it was exposed to something it should not have been.

 

[Longwalker]

Thanks for all the interesting comments everyone. Now I have another mystery to solve.

I was preparing to sight in a .308 that I had put a new scope on. I went into my stash of older ammo to use for that purpose. I found some ammunition that I had loaded with Nosler Accubonds and stored properly 11 years ago were now without the plastic bullet tips.

A couple had tips that dissolved into a small bit of putty like substance, and that ball of putty fell out of the remaining hollow point when turned upside down. Another had the tip sitting in the bottom of the box, with part of that tip dissolved into putty but the rest intact. I couldn't find any others in that lot of 100 cartridges with a similar problem.

This is from ammo I assembled myself, never transported after loading, stored properly in sealed plastic boxes, kept indoors and at a constant room temperature.

What's going on??

 

[Longwalker]

 

[fourfive8]

I agree with the thinking that the basic design of older bullets would have more to do with recently observed poor terminal performance than degradation. Oxidized metals or not, most old jacketed bullets were simply thin jacketed cup and core that have always been somewhat frangible. We have been spoiled by the superior performance of many modern bullets. The “lipstick has been washed from the pig” when comparing these newer, tougher bullets to older bullets including old favorite bullets. Paradigms and perceptions change.