CRF vs Push feed

[jimbo1972]

If you look at how current sniper programs were established is in Vietnam they had a big need for what would later become Marine Scout Sniper. The Major in charge of the program went down to the local sporting goods store and bought Remington model 700 and Winchester Model 70s of the shelf along with Redfield scopes. The Winchester model 70 was post 64 so both were push feed designs. Once the program was established everyone copied their training, weapons etc. so the standard became push feed. Plus the “security” for the sniper is protected by M-16 or similar type weapons.
Big issue with push feed is the extractor. Imagine a rifle is loaded with a cartridge that was originally tested in 50 degrees, put those cartridges a hot environment and many powders will produce a lot more pressure than tested at 50 degrees. Add to this is dust that gets into everything, it is easy to pull the extractor out of the rifle, with the only alternative is to use a cleaning rod to push the fired cartridge out. Not something I want to deal with with DG animal bearing down on me. I’m sure 99.9% of the time it won’t matter and you will be fine, but that small percentage of hunters this happens to is in trouble and better pray their PH doesn’t miss.

 

[IvW]

For 375 H&H and up for dg I only use CRF and also only use Brno ZKK.....
For leopard sxs Brno sidelock or 12ga/9.3x74R combo with Brenneke slugs

 

[Tex .416]

OH,

the receiver cut works fine with the right or left hand loading stripper clips. It allows the thumb to fully depress cartridges into the magazine.

Here is an illustration.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

This thread has prompted me to order spare extractors for both my Springfield and 98 Mauser. And an extra striker for the Mauser (already have a spare for Sprinfield). Never had a problem but I acknowledge those are the most common broken parts in both designs. It's insurance policy that's easily stowed in checked baggage (NO GUN PARTS IN CARRYON). Anyone who can't change a firing pin/striker or extractor in either model probably isn't smart enough to be safe with a gun.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Perhaps. But I cannot see how it would work very well. I'd like to see a Manual of Arms that directs right-handed soldiers using right-hand bolt rifles to load with the left hand. It just doesn't make sense. But then I spent enough time in the Army to know making sense is not always a top priority in the military. I figured that out early on in basic training when they handed me an M16. "We're supposed to kill people with this gopher gun?"

Here he shows using the right hand, if you are strong enough you hold the rifle by the pistol grip and then draw the tripper clip with the left hand, insert it into the guides then shove down with the thumb. The cut out allows the user to fully seat all the rounds into the magazine well.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

If you look at how current sniper programs were established is in Vietnam they had a big need for what would later become Marine Scout Sniper. The Major in charge of the program went down to the local sporting goods store and bought Remington model 700 and Winchester Model 70s of the shelf along with Redfield scopes. The Winchester model 70 was post 64 so both were push feed designs. Once the program was established everyone copied their training, weapons etc. so the standard became push feed. Plus the “security” for the sniper is protected by M-16 or similar type weapons.

That was Major James "Jim" Land. After retiring from the Marine Corps, he became the Secretary of the NRA.

Edward James Land - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A simple google search revealed this synopsis of the Model 98, complete with loading instructions;

An Official Journal Of The NRA | A Study Of The Mauser 98

Adoption of the Mauser 98 bolt-action rifle by Germany on April 5, 1898, marked an important event in rifle history. Today, a century later, the name Mauser 98 is still well-known worldwide and is symbolic of rifle excellence.

www.americanrifleman.org

"Among the most important Rifle 98 features are its loading system and box magazine. Expendable five-round strip clips, also called chargers, are used to load the magazine from the top. With the bolt open, a clip of cartridges is inserted in guideways on the receiver, and the rounds are pushed down into the magazine. The empty clip is ejected automatically while closing the bolt. Loose rounds can also be loaded into the magazine. The Mauser clip-loading system gives the important advantage of increased firepower."

"Drawings of an Oberndorf Mauser sporter show the rifle’s loading sequence.
The bolt is opened; a loaded clip is inserted into the clip slots at the front of the receiver bridge; cartridges are pushed down into the magazine with the thumb;
and the bolt is pushed forward, feeding a cartridge and automatically ejecting the clip."

Perhaps in some 3rd world country that has to issue ammo by individual rounds, their soldiers might load the M98 one round at a time. Germany prior to both World Wars was not that. Ammo was issued in 5-round striper clips (chargers). That made loading fast and easy even in the dark, and kept loose ammo from pinging on each other.

German WWII K98 Ammunition Pouch

Each of the three pouches holds two chargers of 5 rounds.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

OH,

the receiver cut works fine with the right or left hand loading stripper clips. It allows the thumb to fully depress cartridges into the magazine.

Here is an illustration.

Thanks. The stripper clip is loaded from the right side in the video but I don't see how the cutout in receiver assisted in loading from that side. Should the right thumb be inserted into the cutout on left side of receiver, it would span across the magazine to other side and then unable to depress cartridges below feeding rails. If the cutout had any real utility for loading, I'm sure it would have been mimicked in the design of Springfield, which otherwise so closely copied the 98 Mauser that US govt was compelled to settle with Mauser for patent infringement.

 

[John Wasmuth]

It was designed to allow for ambidextrous loading. The thumb of either hand was used to push the rounds down into the magazine well. I’m pretty sure Paul Mauser knew what he was doing when he designed the 98.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Again,

That was Major James "Jim" Land. After retiring from the Marine Corps, he became the Secretary of the NRA.

Edward James Land - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A simple google search revealed this synopsis of the Model 98, complete with loading instructions;

An Official Journal Of The NRA | A Study Of The Mauser 98

Adoption of the Mauser 98 bolt-action rifle by Germany on April 5, 1898, marked an important event in rifle history. Today, a century later, the name Mauser 98 is still well-known worldwide and is symbolic of rifle excellence.

www.americanrifleman.org

"Among the most important Rifle 98 features are its loading system and box magazine. Expendable five-round strip clips, also called chargers, are used to load the magazine from the top. With the bolt open, a clip of cartridges is inserted in guideways on the receiver, and the rounds are pushed down into the magazine. The empty clip is ejected automatically while closing the bolt. Loose rounds can also be loaded into the magazine. The Mauser clip-loading system gives the important advantage of increased firepower."

View attachment 592494
"Drawings of an Oberndorf Mauser sporter show the rifle’s loading sequence.
The bolt is opened; a loaded clip is inserted into the clip slots at the front of the receiver bridge; cartridges are pushed down into the magazine with the thumb;
and the bolt is pushed forward, feeding a cartridge and automatically ejecting the clip."

Perhaps in some 3rd world country that has to issue ammo by individual rounds, their soldiers might load the M98 one round at a time. Germany prior to both World Wars was not that. Ammo was issued in 5-round striper clips (chargers). That made loading fast and easy even in the dark, and kept loose ammo from pinging on each other.

German WWII K98 Ammunition Pouch
View attachment 592502
Each of the three pouches holds two chargers of 5 rounds.

All the videos and the period diagrams show the stripper clips being inserted with  right hand. The right thumb pushes the rounds under the feeding rails from the  right side. The cutout on the left side of receiver is completely out of play. I'm thinking the cutout is solely for the purpose of depressing the blocking follower while dropping an emergency cartridge in the chamber of an empty rifle or for adding an extra cartridge on top of a full magazine. In that situation the shooter needs to close the bolt with right hand while depressing cartridges or follower with left hand. I perform this operation frequently with my Springfield and have to reach over the side of receiver with my left thumb. A cutout for thumb would make it easier for sure. Clearly, that is it's sole purpose. The ability to add an extra round in the chamber of rifle with full magazine also explains why they were equipped with snap over extractors. Obviously military engineers of the time correctly figured the ability to add another round outweighed the extra cost of machining snap over extractors.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Again,

All the videos and the period diagrams show the stripper clips being inserted with  right hand. The right thumb pushes the rounds under the feeding rails from the  right side. The cutout on the left side of receiver is completely out of play. I'm thinking the cutout is solely for the purpose of depressing the blocking follower while dropping an emergency cartridge in the chamber or for adding an extra cartridge on top of a full magazine. In that situation the shooter needs to close the bolt with right hand while depressing cartridges or follower with left hand. I perform this operation frequently with my Springfield and have to reach over the side of receiver with my left thumb. A cutout for thumb would make it easier for sure. Clearly, that is it's sole purpose.

No, and you’ve got half the population of Hue City telling from historical fact how and why it’s designed the way it is but you go on doing you. Good day.

 

[Tex .416]

Again,

All the videos and the period diagrams show the stripper clips being inserted with  right hand. The right thumb pushes the rounds under the feeding rails from the  right side. The cutout on the left side of receiver is completely out of play. I'm thinking the cutout is solely for the purpose of depressing the blocking follower while dropping an emergency cartridge in the chamber of an empty rifle or for adding an extra cartridge on top of a full magazine. In that situation the shooter needs to close the bolt with right hand while depressing cartridges or follower with left hand. I perform this operation frequently with my Springfield and have to reach over the side of receiver with my left thumb. A cutout for thumb would make it easier for sure. Clearly, that is it's sole purpose. The ability to add an extra round in the chamber of rifle with full magazine also explains why they were equipped with snap over extractors. Obviously military engineers of the time correctly figured the ability to add another round outweighed the extra cost of machining snap over extractors.

Here is a screen shot - it is to provide clearance for the thumb.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

No, and you’ve got half the population of Hue City telling from historical fact how and why it’s designed the way it is but you go on doing you. Good day.

Heh, heh. Really? How many veterans of Hue City were sent into combat with 98 Mausers and stripper clips?

 

[DG870]

Ive got a couple of Swedish Mausers and when shooting from a bench I’ll lay the stripper clips on the left of the rifle and charge with my left hand. Maybe I don’t do it correctly but that’s on me I guess. The Swedish 96 was the first Mauser with the thumb cut. Maybe the larger thumb cut was for use wearing gloves or was handy when pulling stripper clips from the left side of the bandolier. I guess I don’t know, just that the designer thought it was a good idea. But it was specifically for using stripper clips. In his book “Bolt Action Rifles”, De Haus, when evaluating Mauser actions doesn’t like these cuts because he says it weakens the actions. I shoot mild loads in my Swedes but i have a 7x57 on a Efurt action and a 35 Whelen on a 1909 Argentine action. Ive started us in Bobs loads in the Whelen using Cfe223 with no worries about the strength of the action.

Back to the original topic of CRF vs PF - I own and shoot both and have not had any real problems with either. I’ve had to replace the extractor in a Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic after several thousand rounds. After replacing the little spring steel extractor I don’t have as much faith in it. It just doesn’t feel real substantial but obviously it works . I keep a couple of spares around now.

The following is copied from Frank De Haus book “Bolt Action Rifles”.

In 1896, Sweden adopted a rifle called the Model 96 Swedish Mauser, based on the M94 action, but made with an important additional feature. The early M94 Swedish action only had a shallow cut for the thumb in the left receiver wall, and this was found to have insufficient thumb clearance when charging the magazine with a stripper clip. On the M96, the thumb notch was made much deeper, extending through the left locking lug raceway. Therefore, to prevent the left locking from striking the edges of this notch as the bolt was operated, and to keep the bolt from binding, the bolt body was made with a narrow guide rib which passed through a matching groove cut inside the receiver bridg

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

“The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.”
Ronald Reagan joked about Democrats. That was back 40 years ago when we could rib each other with a good joke...

 

[John Wasmuth]

IMHO the Efurt receivers are some of the finest ever made. I have 2 1907’s.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

But

Here is a screen shot - it is to provide clearance for the thumb.

View attachment 592512

But wait ... how have I been able to load my Springfield all these years with no left side thumb cutout? And what about all those GIs? They used stripper clips too. The cutout is for loading the extra round in a full magazine or depressing the follower when closing the bolt on an empty rifle. It would clearly be useful for that.

 

[IvW]

“The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.”
Ronald Reagan joked about Democrats. That was back 40 years ago when we could rib each other with a good joke...

Was he perhaps refering to Ontario Canada as well?

 

[IvW]

Its white NO its black....
Its left NO its right.....
Its small NO its big....
Eish

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Was he perhaps refering to Ontario Canada as well?

Probably...
It's also a good reminder to all of us to think before talking or typing. Of course never drink and type!

This is not 1985 when one had to search reference books to verify our opinions are indeed facts.
There's this application called Google that puts information at our fingertips!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

But

But wait ... how have I been able to load my Springfield all these years with no left side thumb cutout? And what about all those GIs? They used stripper clips too. The cutout is for loading the extra round in a full magazine or depressing the follower when closing the bolt on an empty rifle. It would clearly be useful for that.

Looking inside my Springfield just now I see what appears to be a slight thumb slot removed from the left bolt rail at the back end, about the same location as the Mauser receiver cutout. This would appear to be to allow slightly more room so thumbnail does not catch on the rail when loading. But I don't see it helping with stripper clip any more than loading cartridges individually. In any event, the rail notch is almost negligible, certainly compared to Mauser receiver cutout. I also pulled my Mauser from its case for another look. I really don't see how the receiver cutout would expedite loading from the right side, stripper clip or not. Perhaps with heavy gloves on the cutout may help with loading. Anything would be an improvement then. Cartridges being loaded must be pushed under the feeding rails. How reliably can that be done with the thumb spanning across the loading port vs. end of thumb pushing them well below rails is a good question. The Mauser receiver cutout is obviously above the rails. Looks like US designers opted for point of thumb as more reliable than thumb spanning across the receiver. Or they were afraid a receiver cutout would step too far over the patent infringement line.

I have a P14 junker in the safe. Hmmm. Let's see how they handled it. Same as Springfield: slight notch in bolt rail. P14 was also a stripper clip rifle ... but also with blocking follower. The three most significant differences between commercial and military Mauser actions are the stripper clip slot, the cutout in the left side of the receiver, and the bolt blocking follower. We know the functions of stripper clip slot and blocking follower. Very obvious. But the purpose of that receiver cutout is obviously confusing. Some theorize it's for left-hand loading a stripper clip. That really doesn't make sense. Or perhaps it's for loading a stripper clip generally (right hand). But is there that much difference loading with a stripper clip vs individually? The cartridges must be shoved below the feeding rail which is below the receiver cutout. I do not see how the cutout expedites this much. It seems to me by default the purpose of the receiver cutout must be attached to that third difference that sets the military Mauser actions apart from commercial actions: the bolt blocking follower. The receiver cutout allows the follower to be easily depressed (as opposed to Springfield which requires reaching around the underside of rifle/action with left hand to get fingers inside on the follower and push it down). It seems authors have made the assumption that the two visible military features on the Mauser receiver are linked in purpose to each other and have ignored the possibility the link may be to a less visible feature: the follower. My opinion anyway.