404 Jeffrey - Oh Boy, another project!

[Nevada Mike]

Your life will be simplified if you rebarrel to 404J and avoid all the drama.

 

[Rez Exelon]

There's a solid chance of that. There's a Kreiger barrel blank for 450ish on GB right now that is tempting. But I dunno, I kind of as a stubborn person want this one to spew lead. It's a solid rifle, just is going to make me put a little love in it.

I did get an update from CH4D today that they are leaning toward the neck's being too thin on the brass I have. Fortunately, @CZDiesel is a heck of a dude and is helping me get some 404 stuff so that I can test this theory in more detail in addition to me doing another set of measurements on the brass to make sure I'm not an idiot when I did them the first time.

 

[Nevada Mike]

I use both RWS and Norma brass for my 404J. The Norma brass is a bit heavier in my comparisons.

 

[Rez Exelon]

For anyone that's done a re-barrel before ---- If I was to acquire the barrel how much other cost /time is involved in getting it onto a rifle? I've never undertaken that as a project.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

For anyone that's done a re-barrel before ---- If I was to acquire the barrel how much other cost /time is involved in getting it onto a rifle? I've never undertaken that as a project.

Is the barrel threaded and reamed or just a blank? If it's threaded and reamed, it's a small job for any gunsmith to mount it. May require ordering go/no go gauges if he doesn't have them but those are cheap and easy to find even for 404. Then the action/barrel has to be bedded again which isn't rocket science. Any amateur can do it with some help from YouTube or fellas on this forum. That's it. I had a gunsmith put a new used barrel on my Springfield a couple years ago. He charged me $150. I was out of his shop in less than half an hour.

If the barrel is only a rifled blank and needs to be threaded and reamed, the cost will of course be more. Threading, reaming, and mounting the new 404 barrel on my Mauser 98 was $600 but Dennis also fit it into the stock (unexpected) and swapped out a defective part on the new Model 70 safety I had ordered. I would say $400 to $500 for preparing and mounting a barrel blank would be about right.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I use both RWS and Norma brass for my 404J. The Norma brass is a bit heavier in my comparisons.

Besides being shorter, my RWS brass is noticeably thinner in mouth than Hornady brass.

 

[Rez Exelon]

This one is just the barrel blank, so to swap over to it, it sounds like it's cost more than I've got in the entire rifle right now. I mean, I'd hate to have to wait to get a new set of dies made based on the current lead times, but doing that at 200-300 does seem like more of a solid financial choice so far.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

This one is just the barrel blank, so to swap over to it, it sounds like it's cost more than I've got in the entire rifle right now. I mean, I'd hate to have to wait to get a new set of dies made based on the current lead times, but doing that at 200-300 does seem like more of a solid financial choice so far.

My personal opinion would be to leave it as it is and work at it to make it shoot, but I tend to like odd things. All the components are available for the ammo, just need to work out what it likes, and when you get it working you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you did it.
gumpy

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Just thought I would share this beauty

Champlin Firearms - Gun Vault - Quality Firearms

 

[hoytcanon]

I wouldn't dump more money into that rifle...
I missed where you discussed the neck tension from what you feel are the oversized dies? Do the bullets just fall out or is there enough tension to hold them reliably in place?

 

[CoElkHunter]

So kind of an update as I've let this thread get a little dormant. I reached out to CH4D on the dies, and sent them some pictures, then some measurements from the brass. Unless anyone has a really creative way to measure inside the dies then I've basically sent everything useful I can think of to them and will have to wait to hear back on what they say. In the meantime a good friend of mine is helping me out by sending some 404 Jeffery that I'll use sparingly to test with --- the idea being that possible the RWS brass that I have has necks that are too thin. Might as well pull apart a round of new brass to get measurements on it for comparison since I need the brass to load rounds anyways. Outside of that, the rifle is still gloriously nice, but man it hurts not being able to really play with it yet.

Yeah, there must be a way to measure the inside of the dies. I'm now guessing after all the posts here that the dies aren't actually made to the specs they were supposed to be?

 

[Rez Exelon]

So the question I've been working with CH4D on is the question of the brass. Basically, I've captured the following measurements: Inner diameter, Outer Diameter, Neck Thickness 1/2 (where 1 is left and 2 is right). The idea being that T1 and T2 plus ID should add up to OD. Then, we can compare the numbers to their data for the die set.

Right now I did measurements on half the brass that I have available across 1 axis (so that all measurements were roughly across the same line):

Now, what I don't know is what is the neck thickness, on average, of new brass. Because really I have no idea how old this brass is, how much its been reloaded, and how much stretch has thinned out the walls over time.

Obviously if anyone happens to have some cases and wanted to measure them that'd be super helpful. (Or make me a deal I can't refuse on buying the brass, obviously!!)

Marked out, this is kind of what it looks like:

I'm not going to win graphic design awards today for sure. But the question remains, how much do the T1/T2 nodes affect the other measurements. If, for instance, they are supposed to be .014 then does that thickness make it so that the ID squeezes in to a value where the bullet actually gets held in place?

 

[CoElkHunter]

I wouldn't dump more money into that rifle...
I missed where you discussed the neck tension from what you feel are the oversized dies? Do the bullets just fall out or is there enough tension to hold them reliably in place?

+1. I think the dies are out of spec.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I can’t recall reading this, but have you checked the O.D. of the expander ball in the die, if it’s oversized it will open the neck up too much
gumpy

 

[Rez Exelon]

I can’t recall reading this, but have you checked the O.D. of the expander ball in the die, if it’s oversized it will open the neck up too much
gumpy

Yupper....measures .4145-.4150 depending on how my calipers are feeling that day.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Yupper....measures .4145-.4150 depending on how my calipers are feeling that day.

What happens to the case neck if you remove the expander ball and push the case into the die, does it drop in or does it resize the neck smaller
gumpy

just adding, I’m trying to get my head around all possible issues with the cases. I can’t measure my 404 brass as it’s 200km away at my farm.

 

[Rez Exelon]

What happens to the case neck if you remove the expander ball and push the case into the die, does it drop in or does it resize the neck smaller
gumpy

just adding, I’m trying to get my head around all possible issues with the cases. I can’t measure my 404 brass as it’s 200km away at my farm.

At present I can just push it in and pull it out. The only way that really could make sense in my mind is if the die is out of spec, or if the thickness of the brass was too thin.

I mean the dies are certainly a strong suspect, but I also have zero clue as to the history of the brass since it came with the rifle. The only clue about it is that there was load data with 2000 dated on the box.

First picture is the brass after I pushed it in till it hit the shelf and stopped. Second is the closest I can get to a view of it in the die.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You can fireform that brass without seating a bullet. Maybe try that and see how the brass mate with dies. Here's a link.

Well, crap. The forum doesn't allow a link. Maybe I can cut and paste the post. Okay, here it is.

Fire Forming Improved Rifle Cases Without a Bullet​

INTJ [posted by]​

I have done this with three sets of brass now and this last time I tracked things more carefully. The old rule of thumb is to fill the case 2/3 full of pistol powder then use Cream of Wheat, oatmeal, wax, soap, etc. to keep the powder in place. Here is how I did it this last time. Use this method at your own risk, I assume no liability whatsoever.

I fire formed about 200 Lapua 6BR cases into 6 BR Ackley. This process moves the shoulder forward a little and changes the shoulder angle from 30 degrees to 40 degrees.

I used Fed 205 primers, 20 grains of Bullseye, and 1/8 piece of toilet paper. I neck-turned these cases and cut a little into the shoulder. When I chambered the barrel I made sure that the bolt would just close on a 6 BRA go gauge.

After firing with the Bullseye and TP, the shoulders measured 1.148"-1.150" on my Mitutoyo calipers with a Whidden insert. Most were 1.1495", if I can reliably measure to .0005" with that setup (questionable). The shoulder diameter measured .463 and the base diameter measured .4685. After subsequently shooting those fire formed cases with a bullet during load development, the shoulder length was 1.149, shoulder diameter .463 and base diameter .470. I consider that close enough to begin load development. My die sizes the base back to .4685 and the shoulder is wherever I want it.

While I did not have to shoot any bullets through the bore during fire forming I knew there would still be carbon to clean out. I thought there would be a lot but when I looked with the Hawkeye borescope all I saw was a very light gray coating that cleaned up fairly easily. There was no throat erosion or fire cracking.

So far load development with this barrel is going okay, about like when I fire form with bullets.

A couple of notes.

You must use a softer primer for best results. From previous experience I know that a CCI BR4 will not reliably fire with a case neck-turned into the shoulder. The Fed 205s worked great.

The barrel gets very hot if you crank through 200 all at once. I put wet rags the length of the barrel and would shoot 50 in a row, then re-wet the rags. That was on a 40 degree day. In the heat of the summer you would have to go slower.

20 grains of Bullseye very noticeably shoots flame out of a 29.5" barrel. I don't know if I would want to try this with my 300 Ackley with 50 grains of Bullseye, but in theory it would work. Then again, with a hunting rifle I wouldn't need 200 cases--50 would be enough so I'd probably just use bullets.

If you think you need 200 rounds down your barrel before it's even worth trying to tune a load, then this method is of no value--you might as well fire form with bullets. If you think the barrel shoots it's best when its at its freshest and don't have a fire forming barrel, this method works well.

It's not any faster to stuff the toilet paper into the neck than it is to load a bullet, and you might want to wait until the toilet paper supply chain catches back up before using this method...........

Use this method at your own risk, I assume no liability whatsoever.

 

[Rez Exelon]

If I get to the point where I have to conclude the dies are indeed out of spec then I'm definitely going to have to fireform some brass....Looks like Hornady, and a few other shops are doing custom dies based off three fired cases with advertised turnarounds of about 10 weeks. CH4d is advertising about 18 months...so I suppose they'd be out from contention.

If I do go that route though, I can do the test with actual ammo --- I've established that I can narrow the neck using a 416 Ruger die to where it'll be at the right spec to hold the .416 bullet in place. I suppose this is probably another vote that the dies might be out of spec though.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Got curious, so I looked up some comparable rounds...it seems like for a .416 cal, brass should be .447 neck diameter. If I am measuring all these cases at .438 then I definitely seem to be on the thinner side if I am reading into this correctly right?