.35 Whelen & CFE223 - magnum or standard primer?

[wolfhunter]

always run WLR primers

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

always run WLR primers

@wolfhunter
The 35 AI will need about four grains more powder to equal the Whelen. I have an AI version and find it a waste of time. Fire forming cases then reloading equals half the barrel life for an extra 100-150 fps. To me not worth the hassle.
Yes the AI is a fractionly better but do you need more than 2,700fos with a 159 gn or just over 2,400 fps with a 310gn.
I get over 1,899 fps with a Woodleigh 225 gn and close to 2,800fos with an Barnes copy the 229 gn Australian made atomic 29. Don't need any more than that.
Just my opinion owning both.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

always run WLR primers

@wolfhunter
Bloody big fingers and small keyboards
Should have been 2,709fos with 250 grainers and over 2,900fpswith the Woodleigh 225s and just on 2,900fps with the atomic 29s
Bob

 

[tarbe]

Late to this party. I will make my points, based on my ~50 years of loading;

1. There is no substitute for testing. Always take whatever someone else says with a grain of salt...even if their opinion is based on test data. Lot #s of primers/powder vary. Chambers/barrels vary. Brass varies. Loading techniques vary. It all varies!!

2. Loading density is, in my opinion, more important than total grains of powder, when it comes to the mag vs non-mag primer question. I have done a fair bit of work with mid-range loads in cases as small as 22 Hornet and as large as 470 Nitro. Any load with less than around 75% loading density with stick powder or 85% with ball powder, in a case with >50g capacity, generally ends up with a magnum primer due the better consistency afforded. But primers are never just substituted. Always work up. Lower density loads can be a nightmare with a marginal primer...even in smaller cases with less than 50gr capacity. Test!

3. Low temps definitely matter! It is simple thermodynamics. All else being equal, I will entertain magnum primers more readily when loading ammo for cold (below 0F) weather. And I always try to do my load testing at temps approximating the temps I will hunt in. Old habit from before the days of temp stable powders...less of an issue today, with some powders. Not sure if primer thermodynamics have changed as much?

Always remember #1 above, even if you forget the rest. And use a chronograph. No excuses any longer. My Oehler M33 cost an entire month's pay for a Marine Corporal in 1978. Not the case today!

 

[RayAtkinson]

I know what the experts say, but be damned if i can tell any difference between the two, My chrono graph shows about 100 fps or less in extreme cases and little or no differeccd in POI in most cases but that varies as to caliber..Over all I get better accuracy with my favorite primer the FC210. I would recommend using fed 210 in the 06 case and 215s in belted magnums but don't over think it.

 

[Elmbow]

Our weather warmed up to around 0° and so I got out to shoot a few shots over the chronograph. And learned something in the process.

First some history. A few years ago I shot my .35 Whelen and compared both standard and magnum primers with RL15 powder / 250 grain Hornady bullets. The maximum loads that I tried back then, with the same charge of RL15 powder yielded 2548 fps with the Federal 215 magnum primer. Compared with 2534 fps with a Remington 9-1/2 standard primer. Very little difference, 14 fps. I chose to use the standard primers with that powder.

This time I loaded 65 and 66 grains of CFE223 powder in cartridges loaded with 225 Sierra Game king, and 225 Nosler Partition bullets. And also compared Remington 9-1/2 Standard vs Remington 9-1/2 Magnum primers.

Velocities were as follows - with only three shots recorded of each combination I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the fine details but the trends were very interesting:

225 Sierra GK, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 std. = 2676 FPS
225 Sierra GK, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 mag. = 2750 FPS Primer Difference = 74 FPS

225 Nosler PTN, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 std. = 2720 FPS
225 Nosler PTN, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 mag. = 2830 FPS Primer Difference = 110 FPS

On average the Nosler partition was faster / higher pressure than the Sierra.
80 FPS faster than the Sierra when fired with magnum primer,
44 fps faster with the standard primer.

From what I can extrapolate from my manuals and from this limited test, it looks like in my rifle I should consider 2750 FPS is likely also the maximum permissible pressure with this powder and bullet weight. I would not want to shoot a magnum primer with the Nosler bullet and 66 grains of CFE223. If I use a magnum primer with that bullet, I should drop my powder charge a full grain or more.

So maximum powder charges can vary 1-2 grains depending on both bullet type and primer type.

And I learned primer type seems to have a big difference or a small one, depending on the powder used. In physical form, RL15 = stick type, CFE223 = ball type

Also, I tried the Barnes 200 grain TTSX with the CFE223 powder and was disappointed. While seating the boat tail bullets in a case with powder partly filling the neck, the small round powder granules sometimes got stuck between the case neck and the boat tail of the bullet, and bulged / wrinkled the case neck when forced into the "wedge". Stick type powders have no such problem.

I concluded that CFE223 actually does ignite better with a magnum primer. And all bullet types of the same weight are not equal in the pressure/velocity they produce. I'll continue to experiment with CFE223, with magnum primers.

I learned long ago that the 225 and 250 Partitions in the Whelen produce higher pressures than the 225 Gamekings and the 250 Speer Hot Cors. My loads for Partitions are two grains less in both instances using RE-15 and LR primers.

 

[hoytcanon]

I learned long ago that the 225 and 250 Partitions in the Whelen produce higher pressures than the 225 Gamekings and the 250 Speer Hot Cors. My loads for Partitions are two grains less in both instances using RE-15 and LR primers.

That makes sense in theory and.your experience, due to the "braced" construction of the Partition... but my experience does not bear that out, and my loads are identical for both, and the POI is extremely close for both out to 300 yards... but I do test and tweak POI before every hunt... but I do that with every rifle.

 

[Elmbow]

That makes sense in theory and.your experience, due to the "braced" construction of the Partition... but my experience does not bear that out, and my loads are identical for both, and the POI is extremely close for both out to 300 yards... but I do test and tweak POI before every hunt... but I do that with every rifle.

Amazing that in 2025 internal ballistics is still firmly rooted in the dark arts. One of the reasons I keep a vial of rooster blood on the reloading bench shelf.

 

[Rule 303]

Amazing that in 2025 internal ballistics is still firmly rooted in the dark arts. One of the reasons I keep a vial of rooster blood on the reloading bench shelf.

No wonder you are struggling, you need a Nats knacker, the left one do not use the right knacker, as well.

 

[jwp475]

With CFE223 I use the Federal 225 primer in my 35 Whelen