.333 Jeff - Resurrecting an old soldier

[Ontario Hunter]

I doubt this barrel ever had anything shot through it but cup and core lead bullets. Doubtful anyone ever made FMJ or solid bullets in that caliber. Ammo was never abundant so all things considered it seems unlikely the barrel would be shot out.

 

[Piet-Vis]

I received a nice surprise from the people from Timberluxe: a handwritten note from Mr. Brian Board, stating that he noticed the parcel was going to Africa, thanking me for the business and a few extra goodies for free! Thanks, @rookhawk, for the reference!

 

[Piet-Vis]

I bought a Teslong Borescope to get a closer look at the barrel. I have no experience, so I would really appreciate guidance from the experienced forum members. The barrel looks really bad on the inside, with the grooves seemingly getting shallower towards the crown. So, I have a few questions: 1) Do you agree that this barrel is totally shot out? 2) Do you think there is any chance of recovery if I cutt of a few inches of the front?
Our legislation doesn't mention barrel replacements and the country's leading gunsmith is unsure if they are allowed. We also don't have the correct tools to do them. I am certain we will be able to make a plan, if legal, but then I will have to import a barrel and a reamer. I have no idea how much that will cost, but I am starting to wonder if I wont be throwing good money after bad.

 

[Sarg]

Yes that would be one of the worst barrels I have seen on any thing that wasn't in .303 Brit .

Great pity you don't have a actual Gun Smith near by or even in your country, hard to find every where now days, which is a shame.

Having that barrel rebored & rifled would be a good route if you could at least have it removed from the action by a competent Gun Smith & sent or taken to the US for this work ?

Take it out to 404 Jeff from which it was made or one of the .416's if it has enough weight ?

 

[rookhawk]

I bought a Teslong Borescope to get a closer look at the barrel. I have no experience, so I would really appreciate guidance from the experienced forum members. The barrel looks really bad on the inside, with the grooves seemingly getting shallower towards the crown. So, I have a few questions: 1) Do you agree that this barrel is totally shot out? 2) Do you think there is any chance of recovery if I cutt of a few inches of the front?
Our legislation doesn't mention barrel replacements and the country's leading gunsmith is unsure if they are allowed. We also don't have the correct tools to do them. I am certain we will be able to make a plan, if legal, but then I will have to import a barrel and a reamer. I have no idea how much that will cost, but I am starting to wonder if I wont be throwing good money after bad.View attachment 595104View attachment 595105View attachment 595109View attachment 595111View attachment 595111View attachment 595112View attachment 595113View attachment 595114View attachment 595115View attachment 595116View attachment 595118View attachment 595121

That needs a serious cleaning. One taken to a level that has never occurred in Africa. I would put that through a 30 day regimen. Then evaluate what it looks like thereafter. If it looks terrible still, shoot it and see if it matters.

Those photos show very little steel, almost entirely lead. Let’s see what it looks like when cleaned for the first time.

 

[rookhawk]

I bought a Teslong Borescope to get a closer look at the barrel. I have no experience, so I would really appreciate guidance from the experienced forum members. The barrel looks really bad on the inside, with the grooves seemingly getting shallower towards the crown. So, I have a few questions: 1) Do you agree that this barrel is totally shot out? 2) Do you think there is any chance of recovery if I cutt of a few inches of the front?
Our legislation doesn't mention barrel replacements and the country's leading gunsmith is unsure if they are allowed. We also don't have the correct tools to do them. I am certain we will be able to make a plan, if legal, but then I will have to import a barrel and a reamer. I have no idea how much that will cost, but I am starting to wonder if I wont be throwing good money after bad.View attachment 595104View attachment 595105View attachment 595109View attachment 595111View attachment 595111View attachment 595112View attachment 595113View attachment 595114View attachment 595115View attachment 595116View attachment 595118View attachment 595121

Your instincts to cut a few inches off the barrel are wrong. Never cut anything.

Above all else, do no harm. At several turns, you’ve done harm. You need to stop.

Do a 30 day cleaning regimen on the barrel and let’s actually see the steel that remains. We can go from there.

 

[Piet-Vis]

Your instincts to cut a few inches off the barrel are wrong. Never cut anything.

Above all else, do no harm. At several turns, you’ve done harm. You need to stop.

Do a 30 day cleaning regimen on the barrel and let’s actually see the steel that remains. We can go from there.

Ok, myself and the previous owner tried our best to clean it. Copper brushes and JB bore scrubber.
Please suggest a program and I'll follow it closely.

 

[rookhawk]

@Piet-Vis vis

That gun is caked with lead, copper, powder residue, and a whole lot more. Think of the process like dissolving a layer of a pearl. Fully clean with say sweets or shooters choice, you cleaned a layer of copper. Going to hoppes, you’ll get lead and powder residue. So on, and so on.

If you had wipeout foaming bore cleaner, I’d put a plastic garbage bag in a can/bin, and I’d let foam work down the gun barrel for 30-60 mins. I’d then scrub it out, 50 passes. Push patches until clean. Change cleaning agents, try again, the patches will be dirty. Do this for 30 days, you’ll probably find steel under all that other stuff.

Once it’s immaculate, it’s still buggered. Then we see if we can get the surface rust out by wrapping a bronze brush is bronze wool, then wrap a patch around it like a cigarette. Irrigate the patch with Kroil and JB bore paste 50 passes. Then clean with hoppes until patches are clean. Then go back to a lead and copper remover….it still isn’t clean, is it. Do this over and over again. The JB will polish the bore, the Kroil will get under rust flakes so they bust free after a century.

Once it’s as good as it’s going to be, 30-60 days from now, then we use pin gauges to figure out the nominal bore diameter. It may shoot beautifully with a .002” oversized bullet, or simply a bullet seated long so it gets past the throat erosion.

I’ve seen guns as filthy and eroded as yours shoot 1 MOA after maintenance.

 

[rifletuner]

I have looked down a lot of rifle bores and that one looks very bad. But How does it actually shoot? I may have missed it somewhere in the thread, but have you tried it on target? A bore scope is a useful tool, but at the end of the day you need to shoot a rifle to actually know how it performs.

If you can get them, the "Bore Tech" solvents are excellent. I havent used the "wipeout" solvent that Rookhawk recommends, but it has an excellent reputation. There are good example of modern bore solvents that do an excellent job of cleaning a rifle bore.

 

[John Telford]

Piet- how’s the rifling at the last 25mm of the crown? The best way to test is to take a bullet and see if it can fit into the crown. If it can go all the way to the cartridge brass then the barrel is shot out. Sadly I had to resleeve a Rigby .303 that was in this condition. It was basically a smooth bore!

 

[rdog]

Men i think we are kidding our selves that barrel can be saved, it finished as a shooter . One option is to Talk to Allan Swan gunsmiths in Brisbane, Australia he makes 333 Jeff bbls he could copy that profile
exactly & send you a pre chambered replacement that would require some head space fitting, great people to deal with . Just my 2 cents worth. that is if you can find some body to remove the old bbl & refit a new one. Swan sends Barrels all over the world.

 

[cajunchefray]

Red hue can be obtained by using alkanet root, or metal shavings and steel wool soaked in vinegar, or both. The use of rotten stone is two fold, not only polishing the layers of oil, but it also provides part of the grain fill that gives the traditional flecking in the finish that gives the gun English character.

The old recipes are readily available and can be made in Africa. Venetian Turpentine, Mineral Spirits, BLO, Beeswax, and lanolin are all parts of the original recipes, rubbed down with spirits between coats. Spar Varnish can be used as a hardener between coats of oil for the rub down as well.

The best thing about the traditional finishes is they are hard to screw up, because they build up so slowly. Modern finishes are so thick that you can go overboard very quickly.

For $30 a bottle, timberluxe isn’t a bad all in one product for partial or whole refinishes, particularly if a base layer or three of BLO is used first.

@rookhawk , as always greatly value your knowledge, experience, and willingness to share.

What is the proper oil for a London oil finish? Boiled Linseed Oil, Tung Oil, mixture with Beeswax, or some formula thereof?
Now we are getting into trade secrets, but inquiring minds want to know.

I want to refinish my Dads old shotgun, that he refinished many decades ago, using Boiled Linseed Oil. He was very proud of it 50 years ago but it needs some work.

My gunsmith (about to retire) recommends only Tung Oil. Your thoughts?

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk , as always greatly value your knowledge, experience, and willingness to share.

What is the proper oil for a London oil finish? Boiled Linseed Oil, Tung Oil, mixture with Beeswax, or some formula thereof?
Now we are getting into trade secrets, but inquiring minds want to know.

I want to refinish my Dads old shotgun, that he refinished many decades ago, using Boiled Linseed Oil. He was very proud of it 50 years ago but it needs some work.

My gunsmith (about to retire) recommends only Tung Oil. Your thoughts?

I don’t have my recipes handy at the moment, but raw and boiled linseed are part of them, beeswax, Venetian turpentine, and spirits.

If you google the Purdey finish and London finish you will find the recipe And many derivatives of it. I wouldn’t use tung oil for the finish myself. I have used BLO For the first layer or two to start building up foundation on guns before.

There really aren’t any secrets in these London finishes. That is the secret, there are no secrets. It’s all about going slow and doing the work. There are no corners that can be cut. If you go into the better smith’s shops you’ll see a couple million in gun’s stocks hanging near the windows. Every morning at starting time, a London smith takes a drop of oil and rubs it in per stock. Every day at closing time he cleans the shop, oils his tools, and the last thing he does is see if any of the gunstocks are dry enough for another drop of oil or a rub down with spirits and rotten stone.

That’s the secret that isnt’ a secret. Just be so overwhelmed with guns you cannot rush the job. Do 20 at a time and your arm gives out from rubbing. It forces it into long, tiresome Installments that you cannot easily mess up.


Truoil and the modern pimpy gloss finishes can be done in a matter of a couple hours over the course of a week. Those look terrible, but they can be rushed and slopped on like an assembly line. They are also easier to screw up because you can boldly glop on a lot of product, and you can accidentally touch them when wet ruining the job in its entirety.

Stay primitive, take your time, use the traditional recipes available on the internet, enjoy a lasting product that looks stunning at the end of the job.

 

[cajunchefray]

I don’t have my recipes handy at the moment, but raw and boiled linseed are part of them, beeswax, Venetian turpentine, and spirits.

If you google the Purdey finish and London finish you will find the recipe And many derivatives of it. I wouldn’t use tung oil for the finish myself. I have used BLO For the first layer or two to start building up foundation on guns before.

There really aren’t any secrets in these London finishes. That is the secret, there are no secrets. It’s all about going slow and doing the work. There are no corners that can be cut. If you go into the better smith’s shops you’ll see a couple million in gun’s stocks hanging near the windows. Every morning at starting time, a London smith takes a drop of oil and rubs it in per stock. Every day at closing time he cleans the shop, oils his tools, and the last thing he does is see if any of the gunstocks are dry enough for another drop of oil or a rub down with spirits and rotten stone.

That’s the secret that isnt’ a secret. Just be so overwhelmed with guns you cannot rush the job. Do 20 at a time and your arm gives out from rubbing. It forces it into long, tiresome Installments that you cannot easily mess up.


Truoil and the modern pimpy gloss finishes can be done in a matter of a couple hours over the course of a week. Those look terrible, but they can be rushed and slopped on like an assembly line. They are also easier to screw up because you can boldly glop on a lot of product, and you can accidentally touch them when wet ruining the job in its entirety.

Stay primitive, take your time, use the traditional recipes available on the internet, enjoy a lasting product that looks stunning at the end of the job.

@rookhawk , thank you for the explanation.
It’s about the care, processes and real work, not just the formula.

Like French cooking, it’s all in the technique.

Like we say in New Orleans, and South Louisiana, “you gotta put some love into it.”

My Dad always did.

Explaining the way craftsmen work in Best gunshops really brings this to life.

Charles

 

[cajunchefray]

@rookhawk , thank you for the explanation.
It’s about the care, processes and real work, not just the formula.

Like French cooking, it’s all in the technique.

Like we say in New Orleans, and South Louisiana, “you gotta put some love into it.”

My Dad always did.

Explaining the way craftsmen work in Best gunshops really brings this to life.

Charles

And agree that Truoil sucks and should have never used it. My gunsmith fixed that, I don’t know how, but rescued a disaster wood finish, made it into something somewhat respectable.

 

[rookhawk]

Found this on the Vintage Gun Journal website @cajunchefray

This is exactly the recipe I have used previously before I got a bit lazy as of late. (I’ve had good luck with Timberluxe when trying to avoid making finishes).


Stock Oil
Put the following into a pan and simmer for ten minutes, then allow to cool in the pan:
16oz Boiled Linseed Oil
*5 tsp Spirit of Turpentine (jacksonsart.com)
1 tbsp Carnuba Wax (thorne.co.uk)
2 tsp Venice Turpentine (jacksonsart.com)

*Terabine driers can be used instead of spirit of turpentine, if preferred. Do not leave it unattended as linseed oild can combust unexpectedly!

Once cool, bottle the mixture. Keep one bottle open and one closed. The open one will become thicker in time, while the sealed one remains liquid. Use either, as and when required.

Before you start with the finishing oil, however, you need to get the colour right and get the figure to show to its best advantage. The traditional way to do this is with what gunmakers call ‘Red Oil’. It is simple to make. All you need are two ingredients: alkanet root in dried form and boiled linseed oil.

Red Oil. You can buy 100g of alkanet root, chopped and dried from thesoapkitchen.co.uk for £3.60 and linseed oil is available in any hardware store. Simply put the dried root in a jar and pour on linseed oil until it is covered, then put the lid on. Leave it , shaking daily, for six months - or longer, if you can. It will become deep blood red. When it is ready, pour off the oil, leaving the root behind, bottle the oil and you are ready to go.

When your stock is papered-up, you will need to raise the grain by wetting your hand and rubbing a light coat of water over the entire stock, then pass the heat gun over it and dry it off.Then rub it lightly with fine wet & dry paper to remove the fibres that stand up. Do this a few times. Once smooth, leave it to dry properly and then you can start your finish.

Start putting on the red oil with a piece of lint-free cloth. Rub it all over the surface, then leave it. It will be absorbed quite quickly to start with. Keep buffing it off and applying more oil over the next few days. You will see the dark veins in the figure getting darker and the background a deeper, warmer colour. When you are happy with the colour and contrast, you can let it dry for a couple of days, buff it and then you are ready to start with the finishing oil.

Apply finishing oil with a cloth - or your hand, rub it well in, and leave it to semi-dry. when it begins to feel tacky, get a cloth with some more finishing oil on it and use this to ‘rub-off’, that means you are buffing vigorously, in effect forcing the hardened oil into the grain and removing excess from the surface.

Repeat this process for as long as it takes for a finish to begin to show. It depends how absorbent the wood is, but it can take up to six weeks. Do not let an applied oil coat dry hard, if you do, you will have to cut it back, with wire wool or wet and dry, to remove any thick build-up. The trick is lots of very thin coats, building a polish into the wood, which will be beautiful and hard wearing.

The oil will naturally fill the grain, when you ‘rub off’, so you don’t need a grain sealer. Some people use them, after the red oil stage. I prefer not to. It takes longer to finish a stock this way but I think it is a better job. You will know when the grain is filled because the surface will be smooth, without any dips where the grain is open.

Once your finish is complete, leave it to cure for as long as you can. If you can leave it for a couple of months before you use it, it will be more durable. I see a lot of eager shooters take their newly oiled gun out on a rainy pheasant shoot the day after it is finished and express disappointment when it goes hazy.

To maintain the finish, just palm in, and buff off, a tiny bit of finishing oil every now and then, especially if the gun has been out in a lot of rain.

 

[Piet-Vis]

Thanks Guys

I will do all of the above - Clean it like nothing has ever been cleaned this side of the Limopopo before, speak to the local gunsmith, the barrel maker in Oz, as well as the people who re-sleaved John's gun.

I bought this gun to give me pleasure restoring it, and it certain is doing just that!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Thanks Guys

I will do all of the above - Clean it like nothing has ever been cleaned this side of the Limopopo before, speak to the local gunsmith, the barrel maker in Oz, as well as the people who re-sleaved John's gun.

I bought this gun to give me pleasure restoring it, and it certain is doing just that!

Yes, being forced to think outside the box is very stimulating. It's hunting of a different sort. Please let us know how this turns out.

 

[rookhawk]

Thanks Guys

I will do all of the above - Clean it like nothing has ever been cleaned this side of the Limopopo before, speak to the local gunsmith, the barrel maker in Oz, as well as the people who re-sleaved John's gun.

I bought this gun to give me pleasure restoring it, and it certain is doing just that!

The rifle is so filthy, i honestly don't know what type of rifling you have. The inference is you have no rifling and its completely shot out. Maybe. But it could be metford, hill and valley, or a very light cut 4-channel rifling. Once the barrels are immaculate, we will assess the actual condition, comparing it to the nominal bore diameter. That will determine type of bullet (e.g. lead patched), swaged oversized, etc. that will have a shot of decent accuracy.

 

[cajunchefray]

Found this on the Vintage Gun Journal website @cajunchefray

This is exactly the recipe I have used previously before I got a bit lazy as of late. (I’ve had good luck with Timberluxe when trying to avoid making finishes).


Stock Oil
Put the following into a pan and simmer for ten minutes, then allow to cool in the pan:
16oz Boiled Linseed Oil
*5 tsp Spirit of Turpentine (jacksonsart.com)
1 tbsp Carnuba Wax (thorne.co.uk)
2 tsp Venice Turpentine (jacksonsart.com)

*Terabine driers can be used instead of spirit of turpentine, if preferred. Do not leave it unattended as linseed oild can combust unexpectedly!

Once cool, bottle the mixture. Keep one bottle open and one closed. The open one will become thicker in time, while the sealed one remains liquid. Use either, as and when required.

Before you start with the finishing oil, however, you need to get the colour right and get the figure to show to its best advantage. The traditional way to do this is with what gunmakers call ‘Red Oil’. It is simple to make. All you need are two ingredients: alkanet root in dried form and boiled linseed oil.

Red Oil. You can buy 100g of alkanet root, chopped and dried from thesoapkitchen.co.uk for £3.60 and linseed oil is available in any hardware store. Simply put the dried root in a jar and pour on linseed oil until it is covered, then put the lid on. Leave it , shaking daily, for six months - or longer, if you can. It will become deep blood red. When it is ready, pour off the oil, leaving the root behind, bottle the oil and you are ready to go.

When your stock is papered-up, you will need to raise the grain by wetting your hand and rubbing a light coat of water over the entire stock, then pass the heat gun over it and dry it off.Then rub it lightly with fine wet & dry paper to remove the fibres that stand up. Do this a few times. Once smooth, leave it to dry properly and then you can start your finish.

Start putting on the red oil with a piece of lint-free cloth. Rub it all over the surface, then leave it. It will be absorbed quite quickly to start with. Keep buffing it off and applying more oil over the next few days. You will see the dark veins in the figure getting darker and the background a deeper, warmer colour. When you are happy with the colour and contrast, you can let it dry for a couple of days, buff it and then you are ready to start with the finishing oil.

Apply finishing oil with a cloth - or your hand, rub it well in, and leave it to semi-dry. when it begins to feel tacky, get a cloth with some more finishing oil on it and use this to ‘rub-off’, that means you are buffing vigorously, in effect forcing the hardened oil into the grain and removing excess from the surface.

Repeat this process for as long as it takes for a finish to begin to show. It depends how absorbent the wood is, but it can take up to six weeks. Do not let an applied oil coat dry hard, if you do, you will have to cut it back, with wire wool or wet and dry, to remove any thick build-up. The trick is lots of very thin coats, building a polish into the wood, which will be beautiful and hard wearing.

The oil will naturally fill the grain, when you ‘rub off’, so you don’t need a grain sealer. Some people use them, after the red oil stage. I prefer not to. It takes longer to finish a stock this way but I think it is a better job. You will know when the grain is filled because the surface will be smooth, without any dips where the grain is open.

Once your finish is complete, leave it to cure for as long as you can. If you can leave it for a couple of months before you use it, it will be more durable. I see a lot of eager shooters take their newly oiled gun out on a rainy pheasant shoot the day after it is finished and express disappointment when it goes hazy.

To maintain the finish, just palm in, and buff off, a tiny bit of finishing oil every now and then, especially if the gun has been out in a lot of rain.

Thanks @rookhawk . This is exactly the information and procedures I want to understand.
The old school craft. Reminds me of the kind retired engineer at the gun shows in Greenville, SC, 20 years ago. He was never selling, just displaying a dozen or so English guns and rifles from pre-WW II.

Alexander Henry, Joseph Lang, Holland & Holland, Manton, Purdey, Westley Richards, John Rigby and so many more. I spent hours with him, and he was so kind to explain the craftsmanship details, and history.

Thank You.