Welcome To The Wonderful World Of BSA

[Hunter-Habib]

HH - thank you for this excellent write up . I am constantly amazed at how few people know about the BSA conglomerate. Firearms ( both military contracts and commercial arms ) , motor cycles and fabulous high end motor cars under the Daimler brand . BSA made many sporting rifles under the Lee Speed patents pre 1914 and once the patents lapsed simply as commercial Lee Enfields. These rifles were often supplied to the other big London and Birmingham concerns and rebranded “Shot & Regulated by Holland & Holland “ or Rigby or Greener or WR to name a few . They were and are superb rifles in 303 , 315 and 375 ( the rimmed 2.5” case ). Sadly many confuse sporterised ex military surplus rifles with Lee Speeds - they are very poor imitations of a very fine rifle . I have 2 . Both are 303s . The first is a BSA&M Co rifle a Pattern No1 type . This was based on the Magazine Lee Metford II action. It was made pre 1897 . It must have been a revelation to hunters in its day. Happily shoots 215 grain bullets at 2100fps . A really fine looking rifle . The other is an Army & Navy CSL ( made by BSA ) . Another pattern No 1. Has a shotgun type safety . I imported it from England - but not in my possession currently as I jump through hoops to register it. If people have not heard of British Daimler cars google Docker Daimlers and see how fabulous these things were . My uncle drove a Daimler Majestic V8 - a superior car to a Rolls Royce by any measure . These were the cars favoured by the British Royals .

PCC600, more than a few BSA Lee Speed Sporters were also retailed through Manton & Co. and RB Rodda & Co. back in the good old days. Do you use the 215Gr Woodleigh in your .303 British BSA Lee Speed Sporter ?

 

[PCC600]

You’d have to be happy with that shooting . Great

Here are a couple of targets that I recently shot with her. Details are on the targets.

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You would have to be happy with that accuracy from a pre WW1 ex Australian Government rifle .

 

[PCC600]

PCC600, more than a few BSA Lee Speed Sporters were also retailed through Manton & Co. and RB Rodda & Co. back in the good old days. Do you use the 215Gr Woodleigh in your .303 British BSA Lee Speed Sporter ?

Yes I use the 215 Woodleigh . Still have plenty of these pills . I have the old Manton , Rodda and Locke catalogues from circa 1927-1929 . Lee Speed rifles feature prominently . They really are wonderful rifles and the 303 is just a fantastic cartridge .

 

[PCC600]

Here are a few pics of my BSA & M Co Lee Speed 303. Made not later than 1897 . A No1 pattern “best” rifle with full length machined rib on 24.5 inch barrel , tasteful / understated engraving. Has magazine cut off , optional 10 shot magazine , dust cover over bolt . No safety fitted as was common on early models . These things are really nice . Also note if you are ever looking at an early example and think the rifling is worn out - have another look . Up to WW1 most had Metford shallow rifling and are perfectly good .

 

[FlyGuy]

I took some pics of that as New BSA CF2 in 7x64 with the Classic stock.

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Beautiful old rifle in an exceptional cartridge!
I reckon if more 7x64's made it to the USA back in the late teens and early 20's, some of the most popular American cartridges today might never have seen the light.

 

[FlyGuy]

Here are a few pics of my BSA & M Co Lee Speed 303. Made not later than 1897 . A No1 pattern “best” rifle with full length machined rib on 24.5 inch barrel , tasteful / understated engraving. Has magazine cut off , optional 10 shot magazine , dust cover over bolt . No safety fitted as was common on early models . These things are really nice . Also note if you are ever looking at an early example and think the rifling is worn out - have another look . Up to WW1 most had Metford shallow rifling and are perfectly good .

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Beautiful!!!
Still a popular and very capable cartridge for plains game.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Oh yes we do, because actually I Love BSA & have since I was 10yrs old or so !

If I was to include P14's, BSA Sporters (Lee Speeds Sporters) cut down ex military rifles, Martinis & .22's I would have 50 of them or more, sort of collect Speeders .

When I was growing up the list of rifles wasn't as long as today & NZ had mainly firearms from the UK, so Parker Hale , Brno, BSA & top back then would be Sako .

Strangely my favorites back then & still today were Brno & BSA (I like & have a few Sako's now) the Brno & BSA models I really like were actually designed by the same guys the Koucky Brothers !

If not butting in too much I could get a pic of that near new CF2 7x64 & show the stock shape I have never seen on the CF2 models offered down here before ?

@Sarg
I never knew BSA made P14s as the original P13 was sent to America to be made but the war intervened and at became the the P14 made by Remington, Winchester and Eddystone. After they cancelled the contract it then became the M17 to supplement the US Springfield. After the war Remington turned all the left overs into the model 39 and 30S..
The BSA model would be very uncommon .
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I only own one BSA and it’s certainly not a big game cartridge. However, as a young bloke there were plenty about where I grew up…mainly in 222 Remington. And of course in the little martini action rifles chambered for cartridges like.310 cadet, 32/20 and 22LR.

Here’s my BSA in .310 cadet.

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@R eight
In Australia a lot of those little martini cadets were converted to 22 Hornet, 22K Hornet, 218 Bee and we even invented the 222 rimmed for use in the Martini.
Bob

 

[Sarg]

@Sarg
I never knew BSA made P14s as the original P13 was sent to America to be made but the war intervened and at became the the P14 made by Remington, Winchester and Eddystone. After they cancelled the contract it then became the M17 to supplement the US Springfield. After the war Remington turned all the left overs into the model 39 and 30S..
The BSA model would be very uncommon .
Bob

 

[Sideshow]

Fyi the 5 shot Army&Navy rifle shown in this article is mine . Imported it to OZ but being delayed by red tape to finally pick it up . It is a lovely Pattern No1 “best “ quality rifle .

@PCC600 hope you get to use it soon. Red tape is such a boar.
Been looking into getting one here in the uk.
My uncle put himself through university down in Palmerston North with a 303 that had the excess wood removed. I inherited it as the only hunter in the house. Ever since I have always wanted a BSA Lee speed. Had a few Monarchs (most in very poor condition unfortunately) and a CF2 in 270. Must have had one of the worse stock designs, kicked the living daylights out of you.
But the old 303 what a lovely push
I think we would like to see a few pics of the A&N when it lands…….even though it’s not a BSA cough cough

 

[Sideshow]

I took some pics of that as New BSA CF2 in 7x64 with the Classic stock.

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@Sarg do you think that’s an original BSA stock?
Not seen one without the white spacers that they usually added to the heel cap and recoil pad.

 

[PCC600]

@PCC600 hope you get to use it soon. Red tape is such a boar.
Been looking into getting one here in the uk.
My uncle put himself through university down in Palmerston North with a 303 that had the excess wood removed. I inherited it as the only hunter in the house. Ever since I have always wanted a BSA Lee speed. Had a few Monarchs (most in very poor condition unfortunately) and a CF2 in 270. Must have had one of the worse stock designs, kicked the living daylights out of you.
But the old 303 what a lovely push
I think we would like to see a few pics of the A&N when it lands…….even though it’s not a BSA cough cough

It actually is a BSA made rifle - just rebranded Army&Navy . I bought it at Holts in March 2023. Diggory Hadoke commented on it and has photos of it in his online Vintage Gun Journal .

 

[Sarg]

Yes I believe so @Sideshow as the rifle is Factory fresh looking, that's why I mentioned it, I to haven't seen a CF2 with out the Fruity stock .

He also just got in a Minty Monarch in .270Win, I'm afraid right now you can't give away .270's or Wooden Blued old guns.

 

[csmiffy]

@Sarg
I never knew BSA made P14s as the original P13 was sent to America to be made but the war intervened and at became the the P14 made by Remington, Winchester and Eddystone. After they cancelled the contract it then became the M17 to supplement the US Springfield. After the war Remington turned all the left overs into the model 39 and 30S..
The BSA model would be very uncommon .
Bob

They didn't make them per se. You're correct, they were all made by the 3 manufacturers mentioned, but were bought as surplus after WW2 and reconfigured. Models A thru E.
A model had bugger all done to it. Middle models had new barrel and reciever profiled up to E with the fishbelly magazine shortened, new stock, barrel, reciever profiled for scope use, D/T'd for a side mount aperture as well.
Basically the equivalent of Mauser sporter

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

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Sarg
Looks like a P14 BUT there rear ears are missing and it's drilled and tapped for scope mounting.
To me it looks like BSA may have got hold of it and modified it to a sporting rifle then had it proofed and stamped with their logo
Holland and Holland did the same with P14s & M17s when the made bespoke 375s out of them then stamped them made in England and the H&H stamp on them.
Just my thoughts.
To the best of my knowledge for what it's worth is the British made the P13 in 276 calibre and sent it to America to be made as they weren't toiled up for it. The 276 was a very potent cartridge but was found to burn out barrels quickly. When England entered WW1 they had a shortage of Lee Enfield rifles and the 276 was scrapped and the USA was tasked with making the P13 into the P14 for the 303 British. When Britian caught up with SMLE production they cancelled the contract with the USA and paid them out. When the USA entered WW1 there was a shortage of Springfield rifles and as they were toiled up they simply modified the 14 to the M17.
At the height of the war there were more Americans armed with M17s than Springfields.
After the war the American had fallen in love with the Enfield but the government with it's not invented here policy went on to continue to use the Springfield and Remington turned there surplus into the model 30, the grandfather of the 700.
That's a brief overview of my limited knowledge of Enfields.
Bob

 

[Sideshow]

Yes I believe so @Sideshow as the rifle is Factory fresh looking, that's why I mentioned it, I to haven't seen a CF2 with out the Fruity stock .

He also just got in a Minty Monarch in .270Win, I'm afraid right now you can't give away .270's or Wooden Blued old guns.

Yeah when back home last Augusts I saw three on the selves in H&F In Hamilton. Another one in gun city. Why no one wants to rebarrel these fine actions I have no idea. Might be a mind set thing of instant gratification, they don’t want or can’t work on there rifles.

 

[Sideshow]

Yes I believe so @Sideshow as the rifle is Factory fresh looking, that's why I mentioned it, I to haven't seen a CF2 with out the Fruity stock .

He also just got in a Minty Monarch in .270Win, I'm afraid right now you can't give away .270's or Wooden Blued old guns.

@Sarg Had another look at it. It may well be a cut down CF2 stutzen stock. Mind you they did a lot of different verifications on models. Cool rifle though you won’t see to many in that cal in NZ either.

 

[Carlsen Highway]

I have been using an old BSA Majestic in .308, the featherweight model for a long time. She looks like she's been dragged behind a land rover for a coupe of miles, but the bore is excellent and she will shoot into an inch. With a low powered Leupold on top, she weighs exactly 7 pounds. For a rifle made in 1963, that is very featherweight...

I still use her regularly.

 

[uplander01]

Great thread Hunter Habib.