Mannlicher Schoenauer 1903 Barrel Thread

[Maximumsmoke]

I have the action of a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 Greek military rifle. I intend too make a decent custom sporting rifle from this and since it has no barrel, and I need to make one -- yes I will stick to 6.5x54 M-S chambering. I see on one forum that in a book by Frank de Haas' the thread is specified to be as 12 TPI, "V" form, 1.06" dia, with length of thread .720" Though I believe I have found deHaas's book and article on the 1903, I can find nowhere in it referring to any dimensions of the barrel threads. It could be I haven't read the right publication yet. I can verify the threads per inch and the diameter and figure out the right length easily enough. However, I am uncertain of the stated "V" thread form. "V" threads are a 60 degree affair that are much the same form as today's common American Standard threads, but taken to the extreme complete sharpness of profile, which seems a bit unusual. I have found Whitworth (55 degree) is the profile of the barrel threads on most Mausers of that era, so I wonder what Steyr-Mannlicher actually used on the 1903, 1905 and 1908, etc. Have any of you out there re-barrelled a 1903 M-S (Greek military or M-S sporting), and can you say exactly what thread form is appropriate. I'd like to avoid taking a Cerrosafe or epoxy cast of the threads in the receiver to get a closer look at the profile. Thanks in advance for any help.

Cheers!
Tony

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Shank thread length .720, plus extractor length .070, extractor cut width .440, barrel shank major diameter 1.06 at 12 TPI "V" form 60* , is what my notes say for the Greek mannlicher, I’ve never cut one so can’t be sure. Best way would be to cut a stub on a bit of scrap and test it in the receive, do you have a set of pitch gauges you can check with first?
gumpy

 

[Hunter4752001]

"V" form threads include the Unified system, Whitworth, BA, Pg and a host of others. It doesn't necessarily pertain only to 60 degree included angles. The term simply distinguished between those and other types such as square form, ACME etc.

My copy of de Haas' book contains the same info as detailed by Grumpy, however it doesn't specify the included angle. It's also been my experience that sometimes American gunsmiths aren't the best at translating metric into decimal inches. Not a problem with Mausers because they were designed in metric but machined in Imperial. I also note that in that period, many manufacturers were still using manufacture special threads that didn't comply with any other standard. No idea what the situation was with the Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 Greek military rifle. If there are any gunsmith specialising in those rifles, they could advise.

 

[HWL]

Changed the barrel of my M1903 and built my very personal plains game rifle...

..and it works!

HWL

 

[Maximumsmoke]

"V" form threads include the Unified system, Whitworth, BA, Pg and a host of others. It doesn't necessarily pertain only to 60 degree included angles. The term simply distinguished between those and other types such as square form, ACME etc.

My copy of de Haas' book contains the same info as detailed by Grumpy, however it doesn't specify the included angle. It's also been my experience that sometimes American gunsmiths aren't the best at translating metric into decimal inches. Not a problem with Mausers because they were designed in metric but machined in Imperial. I also note that in that period, many manufacturers were still using manufacture special threads that didn't comply with any other standard. No idea what the situation was with the Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 Greek military rifle. If there are any gunsmith specialising in those rifles, they could advise.

It sounds like you know threads, but you really should familiarize yourself with the various systems before you make proclamations on what constitutes them. Particularly to the "V" or "Sharp V" thread, you might find the info on page 1806 in the 27th edition of Machinery's Handbook enlightening. The "V" or "Sharp V" thread system is as I described in my original post. The "V" system is not, in math-speak, a "set" containing other systems. It is a separate system. It does not include any of those other thread systems you mentioned, nor any others.

Differences in 60 degree thread systems might be subtle to you, but there are reasons those systems exist, however common or uncommon they might be, and threads in one 60 degree system may not mate up right with those of another system that uses the 60 degree angle. Your classification of all those thread systems, whether 60 or 55 degrees or whatever the case may be, as "V" appears to be someone's (perhaps your own) general idea of a description of threads that appear to have "points". What about the buttress threads on Mauser bolt shrouds; those threads have points, too. Do they fit your V classification?

 

[Maximumsmoke]

Shank thread length .720, plus extractor length .070, extractor cut width .440, barrel shank major diameter 1.06 at 12 TPI "V" form 60* , is what my notes say for the Greek mannlicher, I’ve never cut one so can’t be sure. Best way would be to cut a stub on a bit of scrap and test it in the receive, do you have a set of pitch gauges you can check with first?
gumpy

Thanks for confirming the figures in my post, Grumpy. Pitch gauge? -- Yeah, done already -- easy enough to determine pitch, Proper thread form is the problem, though. It is hard to tell 55 from 60 with a simple pitch gauge, nor with a 60 or 55 degree thread gauge shortened enough to get inside the internal thread. You can't really see what you're doing well enough. Further, none of those methods can really distinguish between a sharp V thread or one more like today's Unified Thread profile. One might do pretty well if a typical sharp-pointed thread gauge could be placed into the thread for a good transverse view, as can be done with an external thread, but you really can't in this relatively small diameter internal thread situation. And yes, I can always turn up a thread that mates up, but that doesn't actually insure I've arrived at proper thread fit. Likely, in absence of any other info, I will make a hard profile "imprint" as I described (Cerrosafe or epoxy) and use a friend's optical comparator to confirm actual thread profile. I thought I might avoid that . . . oh well . . . all part of my education.

I also could take a fair guess, turn up a barrel that fits, whistle in the dark, and get away with it, but the maker of a good rifle ought to know better, and shooter of a that rifle deserves better.

Cheers!
Tony

 

[Maximumsmoke]

Changed the barrel of my M1903 and built my very personal plains game rifle...View attachment 595101
..and it works!
View attachment 595102

HWL

Nice gun, and nice wildebeest. Big scope -- looks like quite short eye relief -- must be a nice low recoil gun. What's the purpose of that little hook on the back of the trigger guard? Was this a conversion of one of the Greek military Mannlicher Schoenauers, or was it a Steyr M-S sporting gun from the start. Thanks for the pics.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Just checked all my notes I can find, only that first one had 60* on it, rest just ( two other notes) had 12 tpi, no angle, and as to the threaded stubs, if you make them large enough (diameter) the tightness should give an indication which angle it is. I’ll check with my gunsmith friend what he knows. Failing that cerrosafe is probably your better option as it will shrink when it sets so you can get it out, then will expand back to propEr size after a bit.
gumpy

 

[Maximumsmoke]

Thanks Grumpy, but I do not have to put in a complete plug of molding material. I don't need one of full diameter or length to get a good cast of this particular inside thread. Think about it. If using something like Acraglas, first apply a thin and careful wipe of a release agent then dam up both ends of the internal thread with modeling clay or some appropriate substance. A "half diameter" dam will do -- in fact it's overkill. Then, with the internally threaded piece (the action in this case) held horizontal, carefully pour a less-than-half-fill of the epoxy or whatever. All you need is a stripe of the stuff, maybe a half dozen thread depths thick for it to hang together. After the stuff gets hard, simply lift it out of the threads and use some simple tools to determine the thread profile. Remember, I already know the diameter, I just need the thread profile. Anyway, I already know how to do what is described above. I was just hoping someone with experience would know exactly what the thread form was so I could avoid having to do this. Guess I've wasted enough time writing on this forum that I could already have done this. Gotta laugh at myself!!

Best Wishes,
Tony

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Ah, all good. For some reason I had it in my head to check the major and minor diameters of the actual receiver section as well, which is weird when we have both had the same information re shank. My excuse is it’s morning here ( actually just gone midday) and I didn’t sleep well last night. I can see me having a nana nap later.
gumpy

 

[HWL]

Nice gun, and nice wildebeest. Big scope -- looks like quite short eye relief -- must be a nice low recoil gun. What's the purpose of that little hook on the back of the trigger guard? Was this a conversion of one of the Greek military Mannlicher Schoenauers, or was it a Steyr M-S sporting gun from the start. Thanks for the pics.

It was a Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1903 sporter. The rifling of the original barrel was almost gone. Eye relief is ok. The hook on the trigger guard is to better pull the rifle into you sholder. 6,5x54 MS is a fine cartridge for planes game at moderate distances.

HWL

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Thanks Grumpy, but I do not have to put in a complete plug of molding material. I don't need one of full diameter or length to get a good cast of this particular inside thread. Think about it. If using something like Acraglas, first apply a thin and careful wipe of a release agent then dam up both ends of the internal thread with modeling clay or some appropriate substance. A "half diameter" dam will do -- in fact it's overkill. Then, with the internally threaded piece (the action in this case) held horizontal, carefully pour a less-than-half-fill of the epoxy or whatever. All you need is a stripe of the stuff, maybe a half dozen thread depths thick for it to hang together. After the stuff gets hard, simply lift it out of the threads and use some simple tools to determine the thread profile. Remember, I already know the diameter, I just need the thread profile. Anyway, I already know how to do what is described above. I was just hoping someone with experience would know exactly what the thread form was so I could avoid having to do this. Guess I've wasted enough time writing on this forum that I could already have done this. Gotta laugh at myself!!

Best Wishes,
Tony

Perhaps you could contact Joel Dorleac of Dorleac & Dorleac.

He and his craftsmen have restored many fine Mannlicher Schoenauers and he has shared information with others.

 

[Maximumsmoke]

Perhaps you could contact Joel Dorleac of Dorleac & Dorleac.

He and his craftsmen have restored many fine Mannlicher Schoenauers and he has shared information with others.

Thanks!