CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses

[LivingTheDream]

I'm 100% sure that the legal hunting of wild lions produces conservation, and the shooting of CBL does nothing.

Time will tell.

 

[Inline6]

What would not have happened in the first place?
Did I miss something?
Let me tell you what the big picture is:
Hunters and Anti-hunters are in the minority, the biggest majority are the people who have no opinion on this subject and neutral about it and that includes millions of fisherman, outdoorsman and such.
If this weren't the case we wouldn't have any hunting because it would have been banned.
And, NO the power of few don't make the law for many, at least not in this country.
Last time I looked we were living in a democracy where majority rules.

So you think the vaccine was pushed/supported by the majority?
Do you think abortion is pushed/supported by majority?
Do you think BLM is pushed/supported by the majority?
Do you think doing away with fossil fuels is pushed/supported by the majority?

Look at the hunting licenses sold, the numbers are dropping. Lots of reasons for this, let's be realistic. In another 20-30 years it will be a lot easier.

 

[375Fox]

So you think the vaccine was pushed/supported by the majority?
Do you think abortion is pushed/supported by majority?
Do you think BLM is pushed/supported by the majority?
Do you think doing away with fossil fuels is pushed/supported by the majority?

Look at the hunting licenses sold, the numbers are dropping. Lots of reasons for this, let's be realistic. In another 20-30 years it will be a lot easier.

You guys might want to really give some thought to these analogies. The previous analogy used several times says I should have supported communism and socialists. Those listed in your post are all democratic causes, that most seem to disagree with, however people continue voting in the democrats that support those causes. I see it no differently here. Supporting CBL regardless of facts to continue supporting South Africa when they clearly have several very questionable practices occurring. This debate is ridiculous. The information is out there publicly and officially if anyone really wants to investigate and make an informed decision.

 

[Inline6]

You guys might want to really give some thought to these analogies. The previous analogy used several times says I should have supported communism and socialists. Those listed in your post are all democratic causes, that most seem to disagree with, however people continue voting in the democrats that support those causes. I see it no differently here. Supporting CBL regardless of facts to continue supporting South Africa when they clearly have several very questionable practices occurring. This debate is ridiculous. The information is out there publicly and officially if anyone really wants to investigate and make an informed decision.

I did give them thought, it is why they were used. Again everyone has their opinion, I'm not here to change anyone's mind.

My only agenda is getting people to think. I'm not forcing my beliefs on to other and talking down to the people who do not agree with my point of view.

 

[375Fox]

I did give them thought, it is why they were used. Again everyone has their opinion, I'm not here to change anyone's mind.

My only agenda is getting people to think. I'm not forcing my beliefs on to other and talking down to the people who do not agree with my point of view.

I suppose the debate is tiresome on both sides. I would be very glad if CBL was never mentioned or brought up again, but I don’t expect that the case. I question if it ever will even be banned.

 

[HankBuck]

They have ropes strung out that novice "mountain climbers" can cling to in their attempt to "climb" Everest. A local quadriplegic supposedly made it with his lawyer ... with some tech assistance of course.

Perhaps not the best analogy but the point should be clear enough.

I hunt plains game behind fences. But there are calves/lambs/colts/ fawns running with the animals I'm hunting. The animals I hunt were not raised in a dirty pen and then dumped out for me to shoot.

On my first safari a great deal came up for a 48" sable. Okay, if it's known exactly the size of this bull's horns he must be from a breeding operation where he could be handled. My suspicion was confirmed and I was not interested ... at any price. Sable aren't the most wary of animals to start with. I don't imagine it would have been much of a hunt. Just shooting horns. Legality aside, I really have no concept how anyone could value a "trophy" from a pen raised lion. Just don't get it. Maybe there's something wrong with me?

Ontario: clearly you have some knowledge of Firearms, maybe some hunting knowledge as well - but I doubt you could climb into anything higher then a Bunk Bed…. I’m disappointed because now we can’t even joke around about this — Your attempted comparison to Everest fell-off-the-cliff. Please report back after you reach the summit, sure you will shoot a Snow Leopard & Marco Polo Sheep on your ascent (thru the heart—running of course).

 

[HankBuck]

I suppose the debate is tiresome on both sides. I would be very glad if CBL was never mentioned or brought up again, but I don’t expect that the case. I question if it ever will even be banned.

CBL. CBL. CBL. CBL !!! (i think you’re right)

 

[HankBuck]

So you think the vaccine was pushed/supported by the majority?
Do you think abortion is pushed/supported by majority?
Do you think BLM is pushed/supported by the majority?
Do you think doing away with fossil fuels is pushed/supported by the majority?

Look at the hunting licenses sold, the numbers are dropping. Lots of reasons for this, let's be realistic. In another 20-30 years it will be a lot easier.

Inline6: is there any Windmill left for you to fight?? Pace yourself

 

[One Day...]

You guys might want to really give some thought to these analogies. The previous analogy used several times says I should have supported communism and socialists. Those listed in your post are all democratic causes, that most seem to disagree with, however people continue voting in the democrats that support those causes. I see it no differently here. Supporting CBL regardless of facts to continue supporting South Africa when they clearly have several very questionable practices occurring. This debate is ridiculous. The information is out there publicly and officially if anyone really wants to investigate and make an informed decision.

I think that this post captures the entire issue.

The previous analogy used several times says I should have supported communism and socialists

No my friend, no. Not at all. The previous analogy does not say that you should support communism and socialists, it says that you should support freedom of thought and freedom of speech, even when you do not agree with what people think or say.

Applying this principle here, what you seem to miss is that many folks support a form of hunting that is legal, even if they may disagree with it.

As to whether the behavior of bad actors justifies shutting it down, you will, I am sure, notice that driving has not become illegal because there are drunk drivers; private ownership of guns has not become illegal (yet! at least in the USA!) because there are criminals using guns; hunting has not become illegal (yet! at least not everywhere!) because there are poachers; etc. etc.

Whether you realize it or not, these are the cases you are making by inference, which is the reason many of us disagree.

As to the SCI position, allow some of us a healthy dose of skepticism regarding their motivation. The unarguable abuses of some lion breeders and/or lion shooting pen operators needed to be denounced, but I suspect SCI found it convenient to throw the baby with the bath water rather than face the hysteria and the consequences.

 

[Doubleplay]

@375Fox well said.
However we’re wasting time here.
When someone here says they know better than SCI or DSC you have to bow out.

 

[375Fox]

I think that this post captures the entire issue.



No my friend, no. Not at all. The previous analogy does not say that you should support communism and socialists, it says that you should support freedom of thought and freedom of speech, even when you do not agree with what people think or say.

Applying this principle here, what you seem to miss is that many folks support a form of hunting that is legal, even if they may disagree with it.

As to whether the behavior of bad actors justifies shutting it down, you will, I am sure, notice that driving has not become illegal because there are drunk drivers; private ownership of guns has not become illegal (yet! at least in the USA!) because there are criminals using guns; hunting has not become illegal (yet! at least not everywhere!) because there are poachers; etc. etc.

Whether you realize it or not, these are the cases you are making by inference, which is the reason many of us disagree.

As to the SCI position, allow some of us a healthy dose of skepticism regarding their motivation. The unarguable abuses of some lion breeders and/or lion shooting pen operators needed to be denounced, but I suspect SCI found it convenient to throw the baby with the bath water rather than face the hysteria and the consequences.

I deleted my post responding to this. I’ve had enough and repeated myself enough times. When/if CBL gets banned that’s when the argument will finally stop.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I honestly don't think it will be. I think there will be another shoe to drop and the argument shifts. The language around Rhinos is extremely concerning to me.

Regardless, I also think two things can be true at the same time, which is why these discussions go around and around. We are all just bias to our own way of thinking. And that's ok.

I also thinking we need hunting season to start soon, seems like there is less discussions once hunt reports come in.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I was done, but apparently you want more responses from me. The information is out there if someone wants to look both from hunting organizations, SAPA, and anti-hunting organizations. What I’ve discovered during these debates is most pro-CBL members have done no research outside what the outfitter has told them. Maybe it’s done better now but the industry is forever tarnished from previous bad behavior made public. The SAPA norms and standards are available publicly. I read those to dispute another member’s claim of 2 month release times and the strict standards set by SAPA. It states recommended 7 days. The legal requirement is lower depending on the province. Other members have tried to say CBL lions were used to repopulate Mozambique in Zambezi delta always to many likes. It’s written and discussed in podcasts with Ivan carter and Mark Haldane that no CBL lions were used in the conservation effort. The lions came from wild managed populations on large game reserves in South Africa. There seems to be a large misconception any lion behind a fence is a CBL lion. You yourself have tried to create that perception in this thread and a previous thread. Again per the supposedly strict SAPA standards, lions need to be raised with 400 m2 of space (20m by 20m). SAPA has videos where you can see how they are raised since no member supporting CBL is willing to answer me if they’ve visited a lion breeding farm. There is a significant difference between a CBL lion and a self sustaining lion population behind a high fence. SCI and DSC both have official statements on CBL but all members in support of CBL find a way to discredit those. Regardless, that is their official position. The connections to the lion bone trade and cub petting are very difficult to find because it’s damaging to the CBL industry, so exact facts on that I cannot write, but it’s certainly there. I’m done arguing. If the pro-CBL members are willing to reach as far as you have to justify shooting CBL lions. You’ll find a way to believe what you want to believe. I find the practice very damaging to the future of hunting, especially if hunters are willing to not inform themselves or even shield themselves from what it is. The pro-CBL side seems to be running on more emotion than they accuse the anti-hunters of. The facts are there if someone wants to look.

As far as the analogy about supporting communism. That’s exactly the way it reads. Those supporting CBL can interpret it how they like. I’d personally compare banning CBL to cutting out a cancer and maybe too late.
View attachment 597583

I haven't found SAPA standards, regulations, requirements to read yet. So I'll ask:

Is this 400m² cage area minimum per lion or for a multiple number of lions? My impression was about 1/4 to 1/2 that size per lion "kennel" or perhaps an area much the same size as a zoo where several lions are kept together.

The connections to the lion bone trade and cub petting are very difficult to find because it’s damaging to the CBL industry, so exact facts on that I cannot write, but it’s certainly there.

I would expect the lion bone trade to be more damaging to lion hunting as a whole not just limited to CBLs. And I'm sure if someone searched the web they could find several places within a relatively close drive to visit that offers lion and lion cub petting, and even photo ops with lions.

 

[J.Ogilvie]

I'm honestly surprised that it took this long. The facts of the matter are pretty clear.

1. The shooting of captive bred lions is in no way comparable to hunting wild lions.
2. SCI, DSC and CIC all oppose the practice on ethical grounds, and because the practice has no proven conservation benefit.
3. The CBL industry has serious, well-documented ethical problems.
4. CBL shooting harms the image of hunting as a whole.

Have doubts about point #4? Here in Australia, the importation of lion trophies from any African country was banned due to ethical concerns over the CBL industry in South Africa. The issue specifically came about because an MP (member of Parliament) was outraged over CBL practices.

There are numerous threats to hunting right now all over the World (UK and EU trophy import bills, US elephant imports, the Canadian Government's numerus anti-hunting and anti-gun measures, bowhunting and duck hunting in Australia, etc.)
CBL shooting is not a hill to die on, especially when it is an unethical practice that actively hurts the image of hunters as a whole.

 

[HankBuck]

I'm honestly surprised that it took this long. The facts of the matter are pretty clear.

1. The shooting of captive bred lions is in no way comparable to hunting wild lions.
2. SCI, DSC and CIC all oppose the practice on ethical grounds, and because the practice has no proven conservation benefit.
3. The CBL industry has serious, well-documented ethical problems.
4. CBL shooting harms the image of hunting as a whole.

Have doubts about point #4? Here in Australia, the importation of lion trophies from any African country was banned due to ethical concerns over the CBL industry in South Africa. The issue specifically came about because an MP (member of Parliament) was outraged over CBL practices.

There are numerous threats to hunting right now all over the World (UK and EU trophy import bills, US elephant imports, the Canadian Government's numerus anti-hunting and anti-gun measures, bowhunting and duck hunting in Australia, etc.)
CBL shooting is not a hill to die on, especially when it is an unethical practice that actively hurts the image of hunters as a whole.

J.Ogilvie: Hunting and Imports were Never banned or threatened because of CBL or any other type of Hunting —- that “red herring” gets thrown out to get the fight started. There is a constant goal, by many, to ban/limit/restrict Hunting and all that hidden behind “headlines” —- today’s “headline” is CBL and tomorrow’s it will be Elephant, zebra, or something else. To believe that surrendering CBL will ward off future attacks on Hunting is being gullible…terrorists don’t bargain or negotiate but they often win because they are relentless. Love CBL or Hate it - but surrendering CBL accomplishes Nothing to protect the Future or image of Hunting.

 

[cajunchefray]

Interesting......a misconception....but interesting

A farmer is breeding impala, springbok, etc. and/or any other known hunted game species but doesn't allow the hunting of his/her animals is he/she still game farming?

A pasture is still a pasture regardless of size.

These animals are no longer wild free roaming as being able to migrate as they please since they are limited to high fence enclosures doesn't this still fall within the definitions of Captive Breeding?




And you can add all PG. I agree that all other game farming has Not Yet been brought to the forefront of damaging RSA's image. However, Given the way this MTT study and the terms by which this ban is written all farming of animals that are to be sold as to be hunted animals can easily be written in and all such farming activities banned.




Yes and No...."...because they are a financial liability on the property."

If the CBL operation is on a 1 acre to tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands acres of land with a very minimal amount of other game animals and these CBL's are allowed to - required to forage for their subsistence: And such CBL is also operating a domestic animal, ie cattle, goats, sheep, etc., farm or a PG safari operation then Yes this very well could create a financial problem....Because the operator would have to replenish, purchase, additional domestic livestock or PG animals from a PG breeding farm.

If on the other hand the CBL operation has a considerable amount of self sustainable herds of PG then No the CBL operation can be more prosperous by adding DG hunting to the operation.

To put what I'm saying into better perspective. Regardless of what livestock a farmer chooses to raise or breeds those animals have to be fed and watered. The bigger the livestock the more area (land) is required if the farmer's intent is to develop a sustainable (parakeets to elephants) marketable livestock.

Case In Point: There are how many wild free roaming lions in Kruger National Park, and yet they haven't decimated any of the various populations of animals in that area.

As a former cattle and horse rancher I know I can't raise a sustainable profitable herd of either of the for mentioned on 1 acre or even 20 acres of decent quality east of the Mississippi River land. But I can raise enough animals to justify my expenses and still make a very small profit. However by increasing the amount of land to 500 acres and upgrading to better quality grass land I can raise a bigger herd of cattle which will substantially increase my annual profit margin.

Now to reference this to "Captive Bred _____(pick any animal"

How I can personally relate to this as a former cattle and horse ranger.

My primary source of income came from selling my beef livestock at the local stockyard.

My very limited secondary source of income was selling 4 or 5 head of beef livestock to people who wanted to save money by purchasing a beef animal on the hoof vs paying for the pre packaged beef from the grocery store or butcher shop.

Ok, I'm talking about domestic livestock not meant for hunting. BUT IF...[this has never happened to me, can't speak for anyone else]....IF someone was to come to me and offer a smart amount of money to shoot a bull of my choosing and I label that bull as a trophy class animal, at a price 5, 10, 20, times the price I would get at the livestock sale. Well Damn straight I'm going to guide him, let him shoot it with any caliber of rifle over 338, back him up with my 458WM, give him: a photo op, the head, and a steak dinner, and then send him on his way. After that I'll process the rest of the meat and hide for my own use while LMAO all the way to the bank.

Rhetorical Questions:

Multiply this scenario by 5,10, 20, times in a year. How long would it take before I would have competition from other cattle ranchers?

Has this suddenly damaged the beef industry or shined a "bad" light on hunters and/or hunting?

In perspective this started out on 500 acres, other ranchers are advertising 1000, 1500, 2000, 10,000 acres of hunting land.

Then a few smaller operations start popping up on 5, 10, 20 acres of land looking to cash in on this new industry and these smaller operations operate in a lesser ethical business scheme. Should all cattle ranchers be condemned, forced out of business because the government failed to put any oversight or controlled regulations in place?

Let's further relate this to the more familiar animals here in the USA, exchanging the words:

CBL- Lion to CBE - Elk
Elephant to Bison
Leopard to Whitetail Deer
Rhinoceros to Hogs.

For those hunters that are cheering with the antis on the abolishment of CBL; Would you still be cheering with the antis on the abolishment of CBE?

'The enemy of my enemy is my friend'.
It is one thing as hunters to debate the CBL matter amongst ourselves. It is quite another matter when hunters join our common adversaries the antis in cheering of their victory against other hunters, the greatest competition against poachers and the more costly wild free roaming lion hunting outfitters that can double, triple, quadruple, their lion trophy and cull fees once these CBL operations are totally out of business.

As a cattleman’s son, this is a well reasoned viewpoint.
Thank you.

 

[375Fox]

J.Ogilvie: Hunting and Imports were Never banned or threatened because of CBL or any other type of Hunting —- that “red herring” gets thrown out to get the fight started. There is a constant goal, by many, to ban/limit/restrict Hunting and all that hidden behind “headlines” —- today’s “headline” is CBL and tomorrow’s it will be Elephant, zebra, or something else. To believe that surrendering CBL will ward off future attacks on Hunting is being gullible…terrorists don’t bargain or negotiate but they often win because they are relentless. Love CBL or Hate it - but surrendering CBL accomplishes Nothing to protect the Future or image of Hunting.

You guys in the pro-CBL camp really should consider researching a topic for even just 5 minutes before you like a post or tell someone they are wrong. A two minute Google search and all the articles discussing Australia’s lion import ban also discussed CBL lion shooting.

 

[J.Ogilvie]

J.Ogilvie: Hunting and Imports were Never banned or threatened because of CBL or any other type of Hunting —- that “red herring” gets thrown out to get the fight started. There is a constant goal, by many, to ban/limit/restrict Hunting and all that hidden behind “headlines” —- today’s “headline” is CBL and tomorrow’s it will be Elephant, zebra, or something else. To believe that surrendering CBL will ward off future attacks on Hunting is being gullible…terrorists don’t bargain or negotiate but they often win because they are relentless. Love CBL or Hate it - but surrendering CBL accomplishes Nothing to protect the Future or image of Hunting.

That's not correct. It was specifically because of CBL shooting that lion imports to Australia were banned. This is from the Australian Government website explaining why they banned imports:

"Why did the government introduce this measure?"

It was introduced in response to Australian public concerns about 'canned hunting' of African lions.

"Why did the government ban trade in all African lion specimens if the issue is only with canned hunts?"
It is usually impossible to tell whether a particular African lion product has come from a lion that has been killed in a canned hunt or not. Australia's new domestic measure for all African lion items will reduce the risk of African lion trophies obtained through canned hunting being brought into the country.

https://www.dcceew.gov.au/environment/wildlife-trade/cites/stricter-measures/african-lion#why-did-the-government-introduce-this-measure

In other words, it was explicitly due to concerns over CBL shooting that lion imports were banned. You may not like that they banned all lion imports (I certainly don't), but the CBL industry is what caused it to happen. Countries that allow ethical, sustainable hunting of wild lions ultimately lost out due to the CBL industry.

As for the other examples you cited (elephant, Zebra, etc.) you can't compare them to CBL shooting. SCI, DSC and other organizations have been staunch supporters of ethical, sustainable elephant hunting, despite significant backlash from the MSM and anti-hunting groups. There is also strong evidence showing that controlled hunting of elephants contributes significantly to conservation and brings benefits to rural communities.

There is no evidence that CBL contributes anything to conservation, and the ethical problems with it are well-known. Not every decision made by our organizations is due to outside pressure. Many people in the hunting fraternity have a serious problem with practices like CBL shooting on ethical grounds, and we also recognize that it doesn't do us any favors in terms of public relations.

 

[mark-hunter]

There is no evidence that CBL contributes anything to conservation, and the ethical problems with it are well-known. Not every decision made by our organizations is due to outside pressure. Many people in the hunting fraternity have a serious problem with practices like CBL shooting on ethical grounds, and we also recognize that it doesn't do us any favors in terms of public relations.

I am not interested in hunting CBL lion. WIld lion I cannot afford. But also I am not for immediate dismissal of CBL farming.

In present point of time, it can be argued that CBL hunting in present form does not have conservation value. But as someone said, it is a form of farming with specific way of harvesting.
It does reduce poaching pressure for lion parts market in China, in my opinion.

In case CBL practice is banned, there will no longer be CBL lions.

But lets look at the future.
Wild lion population is reducing, now at 23.000 in the wild.

What if the lion becomes extint in the wild, in 50 or 100 years from now?
The history will record that we euthanized up to 12.000 CBL lions, basically because there was no more financial incentive for this practice. Neither this, nor such future will mark our "brightest hour".

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/17/world/captive-breeding-species-cte-scn-spc-intl/index.html

Ethics.
Apex predator hunting in the fence. Can such predator be sustainable in fence? (like plains game?)

In the wild, a lion's territory can range from 20 to 400 square miles (50 to 1,000 square kilometers), depending on the availability of prey and water. Source:

The African Lion: King of the African Bush

African lions have been admired throughout history as symbols of strength and bravery. We've curated all the facts about these big cats...

africanbushcamps.com

Average game farm size in South Africa:

Definitely, cannot be described as ethical, they cannot have their natural range within the average fence.

What in my opinion should be done is to make African international program for reintroduction of the lions in the wild, in appropriate areas of its former natural range, with incentive for farmers. This is the only ethical solution.
But I dont see public dialogue about this matter anywhere. This is where we fail

 

[Excessexpress]

I suppose now the link between petting zoos and bone exports can now pass directly, without the fig leaf offered by CBL shooting.

Time will tell how long the zoos and bone export lasts.