Why all the hate for CBL (Captive-Bred Lion) Hunting?

[Tanks]

also don't care to hunt "Dangerous Game", if there is no danger.

"Sniping" an elephant from 200M, holds no interest for me.

Where have you seen an elephant being sniped at 200M?

BTW, I suggest you try night hunting elephants if you are after danger.

I dropped this one at about 15M in charge. Wasn't the one we were looking for.

 

[Hunt anything]

@Tanks , no thanks, been there done that and that was definitely enough! Scared the stuffing out of me!

 

[Russ16]

The talk of danger is interesting to me. For me it isn’t the presence or lack of danger it’s the presence or lack of wildness.

I saw one video on YouTube where a guy hunted a CBL with a crossbow. Has two PH with him. They snuck up quite close and he shot it with the crossbow at which point it immediately charged. Both PHs fired dropping the lion at less than 10 yards. Quite dangerous for sure! But none of it looked very natural or wild to me at all.

Again that guys free to do that and I do t care that he did. Just holds no interest for me. Just like shooting a deer at 700 yards holds no interest for me.

 

[Flbt]

More people get charged by a CBL than a wild one. They are not afraid of humans.

Oh ok
But do the press the charge?
I have no dog in this fight just interested.

 

[towserthemouser]

This is an interesting thread to me. And knowing that it's a controversial one, I appreciate all who are willing to speak out (on either side) and contribute to the discussion.

I think I would love to hunt a lion. I don't know if I ever will have the chance or make the decision, but I do think about it a lot. As near as I can tell, it's $40k and going up every year, which currently equals 4 buffalo, or 2-3 tuskless elephant, or perhaps 1-2 trophy bull elephant, or 5 hippos..... you get the idea. The cost of hunting a wild lion in a wilderness area is SIGNIFICANT, and involves tradeoff decisions.

I *think* I would prefer to hunt them by tracking vs. sitting in a blind over bait, it just sounds more exciting to me.

Some observations:
1.) The trophy photos that I have seen advertised from CBL hunts are gorgeous. TOO gorgeous. Pretty boys, with long luxurious flowing MGM movie star lion manes, wafting gently in the breeze, beautifully posed on a mound of dirt. When you can tell what a pretty boy he is from the photos, it's a clue. He ain't never been in a fight. He ain't never brought down a buffalo bull. He's pretty. Southern boys talk about the difference between a show dog and a huntin' dawg....... and there is a big difference.

2.) I did take note of the fact that at the recent SCI show they had a sign indicating that the SCI has elected not to recognize CBL lions for trophy purposes. Take that for what it you think about it; it's an indicator of a viewpoint from a major African hunting organization.

3.) My guess is that any lion is plenty dangerous enough to hurt you very bad or kill you very dead. Hell, my house cat can scratch the hell out of you. I could easily imagine that a CBL may have lost any fear/respect for humans and could be VERY dangerous on certain ground. I bet it's a bad idea to walk in his cage with him. So I don't dispute the idea that they can be dangerous, and I have no idea how to compare the danger level of a wild lion vs. a CBL. Lots of variables there.

4.) Is there a noticeable difference in the wariness, savvy, alertness, etc. of a CBL vs. a wide-awake seasoned old warrior? Wouldn't surprise me if there was. They might both be dangerous, but one might be much harder to hunt. Does that make him more of a trophy? You decide for you, and I'll decide for me. I'll respect your choice and I hope you will respect mine.

5.) For me, the decision to save up for a lion hunt comes down to thinking hard about the reason WHY I want to hunt him. Is it to have the taxidermy mount in my trophy room and for that to look really impressive? Is it to complete a list, such as Big 5? Is it to have a certain type of experience that I'm hoping for? For me personally, the main factor that would be most likely to push me to do it is because the damn things scare me. So of course I'm intrigued to hunt them LOL. And if I did, that would be the reason to prefer a tracking hunt; to face him. Is that weird, or some kind of comment on my psychology? Probably.

This is a good discussion, and I'm glad we have this place to have it.

 

[dchum]

And yet again the conversation has devolved to the experience of the hunt which is of lesser importance than conservation value and not even a critique of CBL practices

Every time

 

[ACE (in CT)]

Question asked out of ignorance, I hear stories of Hunters being offered a chance to hunt a “rouge lion that jumped the fence and is eating our Kudu” and not knowing they are after a cat that was just brought in in a cage. Does this happen much, Is that really a thing?

 

[375Fox]

Question asked out of ignorance, I hear stories of Hunters being offered a chance to hunt a “rouge lion that jumped the fence and is eating our Kudu” and not knowing they are after a cat that was just brought in in a cage. Does this happen much, Is that really a thing?

In the past many were sold as rogue lions that crossed in from Botswana. The movie blood lions came out in 2015 and removed a lot of the ability to lie to that extent.

 

[Russ16]

And yet again the conversation has devolved to the experience of the hunt which is of lesser importance than conservation value and not even a critique of CBL practices

I don’t know enough about the rearing techniques but my guess is they vary wildly.

I’ve not heard of any CBL being used to repopulate wild populations nor populations that are self sustaining without supplemental feeding or breeding assistance. To me that means that they have no conservation value at least by the way I define it. My definition isn’t final for everyone just the one I use for making my judgements.

If there are CBL operations that fit into one of those two categories I’d love to hear about them.

 

[CBeck]

Is it to have a certain type of experience that I'm hoping for? For me personally, the main factor that would be most likely to push me to do it is because the damn things scare me. So of course I'm intrigued to hunt them LOL. And if I did, that would be the reason to prefer a tracking hunt; to face him. Is that weird, or some kind of comment on my psychology? Probably.

This is a good discussion, and I'm glad we have this place to have it.

This….to me, is the only reason. And I too am glad for the opportunity to discuss with civil, likeminded individuals.

 

[Hunt anything]

It would be a great PH-D study to take CBL to an area that has no lions, release them and do an extensive research study on them. Similar to what they did in the Zambezi delta of Mozambique but with the CBL not wild captured lions.

 

[375Fox]

I don’t know enough about the rearing techniques but my guess is they vary wildly.

I’ve not heard of any CBL being used to repopulate wild populations nor populations that are self sustaining without supplemental feeding or breeding assistance. To me that means that they have no conservation value at least by the way I define it. My definition isn’t final for everyone just the one I use for making my judgements.

If there are CBL operations that fit into one of those two categories I’d love to hear about them.

That would fall into the wild managed lion catagory not CBL. Some more heavily managed than others. There was an offer here from a former sponsor a few years ago. Something like $30k for a trophy male from a wild managed pride on large fence farm. It didn’t seem to get any attention. They can’t compete when CBL is marketed for $3000 for a lioness and $6000 for a male and marketed as the same experience. As I said in my first post CBL is a disincentive for landowners to keep wild managed lions on their property because they have to be worth more than they eat.

 

[375Fox]

It would be a great PH-D study to take CBL to an area that has no lions, release them and do an extensive research study on them. Similar to what they did in the Zambezi delta of Mozambique but with the CBL not wild captured lions.

That’s what they did in the video I posted and Tally Ho referenced. It was a case study to see. However it doesn’t change the fact there are excess wild lions in many areas and there are no areas to place them. Nearly all areas that can hold lions already do. Just like we don’t want wolves restocked throughout the United States. Rural African’s don’t want lions.

 

[Hunt anything]

@375Fox, I didn’t have time to look at it earlier but will go back and check it out.

 

[Lee M]

Something that I have learnt is, the lower the price, the more flexible people's perception of ethics become.

It’s easy to equate ethics to money, but most people can’t afford $20,000 -$40,000 hunts. So i think that’s an unfair statement. I understand that outfitting is a business and businesses want to make money. I don’t have an issue with that as we all want to improve our financial position and do well. I’m looking to do an elk hunt and recently talked to many outfits at the Harrisburg PA show which I’ve attended for 25+ years and is one of the biggest in the US. These hunts have increased dramatically the past five years. I’ve also talked to AH sponsors and outfitters and quotes from last year to this year have gone up 30% in 1 year to over $13k. Again outfitters can set their price and hunters can choose to pay what they can. I’m a capitalist so no issue. But stop putting the term “ethical” into an outfitter or hunters choice. We all can make this decision.

 

[375Fox]

It’s easy to equate ethics to money, but most people can’t afford $20,000 -$40,000 hunts. So i think that’s an unfair statement. I understand that outfitting is a business and businesses want to make money. I don’t have an issue with that as we all want to improve our financial position and do well. I’m looking to do an elk hunt and recently talked to many outfits at the Harrisburg PA show which I’ve attended for 25+ years and is one of the biggest in the US. These hunts have increased dramatically the past five years. I’ve also talked to AH sponsors and outfitters and quotes from last year to this year have gone up 30% in 1 year to over $13k. Again outfitters can set their price and hunters can choose to pay what they can. I’m a capitalist so no issue. But stop putting the term “ethical” into an outfitter or hunters choice. We all can make this decision.

When it comes to CBL I don’t know how you can remove the word ethics from the discussion. Maybe you’d like to read an old CBL thread vs a new one? When prices were high many more found it unethical. When prices dropped after exports stopped many decided it was now ethical and the discussion changed a lot. I don’t believe in the lion for everyone philosophy. Hunt what you can afford. I’ll likely never hunt a lion over pricing but I’m not willing to substitute a CBL simply because it’s affordable.

Old CBL thread

S

Thread 'PHASA Captive Bred Lion Hunting'

Nov 24, 2017

To start off with it has been a long time since I have been on this site. As such this could come across as a whine. That is not the intent.

The Professional Hunters Association of South Africa, PHASA, had their annual meeting this week. A group of lion farmers seems to have hijacked the organization. The PHASA constitution was changed to allow for captive bred lion hunting with essentially little restrictions. The outcome was that a number of PH's resigned the organization and Board as they see this an unethical and a violation of fair chase principles.

Several organizations have...

• saeng101
• Replies: 321
• Forum: Articles

• 

Most recent CBL thread

Thread 'CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses'

Apr 3, 2024

South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting

Breeders have two years to voluntarily withdraw from the sector and change business model

gulfnews.com

​

South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting​

Breeders have two years to voluntarily withdraw from the sector and change business model

---

Published: April 03, 2024 17:56AFP
Follow us

---

The practice of breeding big cats to have them shot later by wealthy hunters has long been loathed by conservation and animal rights groups.Image Credit: Pixabay
Cape Town: South Africa on Wednesday laid out plans to phase out the...

• wesheltonj
• Replies: 219
• Forum: News & announcements

• 
• 
• 

 

[Daisy]

I think it’s a little like Bill Gates telling me I should drive a Prius and never fly. It’s just hard getting lectured by those that have been on multiple wild lion hunts. Probably should just pick a different topic to champion.

 

[375Fox]

I think it’s a little like Bill Gates telling me I should drive a Prius and never fly. It’s just hard getting lectured by those that have been on multiple wild lion hunts. Probably should just pick a different topic to champion.

Who commenting has been on multiple wild lion hunts? Who has even been on one? This debate seems to find those who disregard all logic to support their point.

 

[Lee M]

I get it but people likely said “ethics” because they could not afford it. We have many that say bad things about others who have more money to spend. Too much class warfare in our times. I’m fine with your position on this and I’ve never considered a CBL hunt. But to say you can’t remove ethics from this discussion i think is incorrect. There is a whole anti hunting group who thinks all hunting is unethical. We all get to make this decision and none of our opinions are more valid than others. They just divide us.

 

[375Fox]

I get it but people likely said “ethics” because they could not afford it. We have many that say bad things about others who have more money to spend. Too much class warfare in our times. I’m fine with your position on this and I’ve never considered a CBL hunt. But to say you can’t remove ethics from this discussion i think is incorrect. There is a whole anti hunting group who thinks all hunting is unethical. We all get to make this decision and none of our opinions are more valid than others. They just divide us.

I suppose I don’t view this as hunting. This is a farming practice disguised as hunting. It should have been stopped before it ever took hold. I really don’t care what hunts a person chooses if they know the details WHEN it doesn’t impact me, but CBL has wider implications to hunting. It erodes our message that sustainable hunting protects wild areas if we support put and take. A movie like Blood Lions should never have been possible to be made.