The Scout Rifle Has Run It’s Course

[USMA84DAB]

Thank you for the kind feedback Tanks!

 

[BC.Pat]

This is a small bull I took last year with my 9.3x62 Garand, took a fair bit of milling of the receiver feed rails to get it to feed reliably. 1 moa with hand loads, but the scope is a bit fussy and narrow . I am contemplating a Eotech as my iron sight days are behind me unfortunately. Just saw all these pretty Garand's and figured I throw mine in.

Regards
Pat

 

[USMA84DAB]

Good Job! You are stoking my desire to get a Whelen Garand!

 

[BC.Pat]

Good Job! You are stoking my desire to get a Whelen Garand!

Do it !!!
I have never regretted it, everyone I let shoot the rifle loves it and bangs thru all my handloads.
The 35 Whelen is a good cartridge, but I have 7~8 9.3 bolt rifles so the 9.3 was the obvious route for me.
I suspect you will have easier time finding parts than I did, mine is built from spare new old stock parts. I would not tear into a original.

Regards
Pat

 

[Cervus elaphus]

Some rifle intellectual effort for your enjoyment
I wrote this for my website and Clients. Hope you enjoy my analysis.

Had me thinking about single-purpose rifles. I do like the .308 or 7.62 NATO caliber and I had an ex north-African AR10 Stoner prototype semi (it still had desert sand inside the butt). However I couldn't hit a barn door with it even prone over a rest, and found the same with the L1A1 or SLR, so it was probably me rather than the rifles. A BSA .243 I also owned was so accurate I needed to hit the barrel with a large sledge to give the game a chance. In a combat situation I know which rifle I would chose and I was surprised when the US military went to the lightweight 5.56 or .223 cartridge - iirc the reason then was that squadies could carry more ammo to spray around the planet (let's not get into the ball ammo fiasco). A 7.62 or .30 cal FMJ will go thru a tree and kill the bad guy on the other side (ok a bit of exaggeration) compared to the AR15/M16 which is easily deflected. I thought a good compromise would have been the 6mm with a lot more punch and easy recoil and best of all, .308 cases readily available to neck down.
Unless you're a sniper sitting back half a mile from the action I can't see the point of a bipod when a pack or rolled up jacket will do the same job when accuracy is paramount. On a PG hunt (with a 30-06 e.g.) I would carry a Harris bipod in a small backpack but not fitted.
For an outright combat weapon I would use the AK47, at least the ballistics are close to a 30-30 and they wouldn't be that difficult to source if you have the cash (Beirut, Lebanon). I would find it difficult to find a rifle/caliber for both Africa and GP defense. I agree with your closing words though, find the caliber you are good with first and then look around for a rifle that fits the principles of the good Col's Scout.

 

[USMA84DAB]

BC.Pat - Absolutely agree with your logistics base reason for going with the 9.3x62!

Cervus - the logistic inertia for the services to overcome in switching cartridges is a gargantuan monster. A great deal of excellence and professionalism went into the toilet when we left mandatory service. The services no longer were answerable to the population because, after all, your little buttercup VOLUNTEERED for the Army - he didn't have to enlist - now our armed forces have become a woke social engineering fielding ground - why worry about using a truly effective small arms round? Besides the Military Industrial Complex makes alot more money on artillery shells and hellfire missiles vs. 5.56x45 or 6.5 rounds.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Its. Nobody cares about spelling/grammar in informal settings/internet chat, etc. but once you're publishing something and putting it on your webpage, you may wish to (gain more credibility by) use of a spell/grammar checker (or simply have someone else proofread). I didn't read the attachment, so you're off the hook if you didn't use "It's" in it. This one is free: It's means It is or It has. Use its when those two don't work (that's the short story.) It's becoming the norm in the media today, too. The dumbing down of America in prep to learn Chinese! I think scout rifles are uglier than my ex-mother in-law, but I recall A-Sq big bore rifles (.500 and the like) being set up for scout scopes to avoid whole head thickness "smiles" and massive blood loss on the wrong end...upon firing.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

Nice analysis. I think the Colonel was envisioning an AR-10 when he was describing the Scout but just didn't know it because the tech was not there at the time. You're updated parameters are spot.

Who knows where future development will take us in the next 20-30 years...

Laser or pulse disruption weapons. You won't be able to move far from the supply truck where the batteries are kept.

Some rifle intellectual effort for your enjoyment
I wrote this for my website and Clients. Hope you enjoy my analysis.

After reading a bit more and looking at Scout rifles on offer, I'll stick my neck out and say they have an uncanny resemblance to the sporterized .303 No.4 SMLE which has just about all the requirements, removable 5-10 shot mags, clip strippers, open sights (apertures are good), rugged construction (you can tenderize steaks with the butt), although not .308 cal, modern .303 loads will do the biz on most games animals and bad people. Handloads like the Hornady 174gr @ 26-2700fps (Norma) or Woodleigh 215gr @ 2310fps. The Savage Scout looks a lot like my ex No.4 and the only drawback I can find with the .303 would be the weight compared to the Col's 6.6lbs. One other thing, price.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

BC.Pat - Absolutely agree with your logistics base reason for going with the 9.3x62!

Cervus - the logistic inertia for the services to overcome in switching cartridges is a gargantuan monster. A great deal of excellence and professionalism went into the toilet when we left mandatory service. The services no longer were answerable to the population because, after all, your little buttercup VOLUNTEERED for the Army - he didn't have to enlist - now our armed forces have become a woke social engineering fielding ground - why worry about using a truly effective small arms round? Besides the Military Industrial Complex makes alot more money on artillery shells and hellfire missiles vs. 5.56x45 or 6.5 rounds.

Absolutely. Even in some Navies today, sailors are allowed to wear makeup. World wars tend to change things like that in a big hurry.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I agree @Cervus elaphus a No.4 with the prep sight is very close to a scout rifle. I want to get one in 303 like that. I am currently building a 303-25 with a 25” barrel.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

I agree @Cervus elaphus a No.4 with the prep sight is very close to a scout rifle. I want to get one in 303 like that. I am currently building a 303-25 with a 25” barrel.

That would be a good conversion. For the 25 cal you could probably (carefully) trim out the woodwork, shorten the barrel, add a good recoil pad etc. The .303 may be old but it's still a damn good rifle. I seem to remember reading somewhere about using a sabot round of about 25 cal in the .303 ?. Also, I don't think converting to .308 is an easy job and don't see the need to. cheers

 

[Jack Stevens]

This is a small bull I took last year with my 9.3x62 Garand, took a fair bit of milling of the receiver feed rails to get it to feed reliably. 1 moa with hand loads, but the scope is a bit fussy and narrow . I am contemplating a Eotech as my iron sight days are behind me unfortunately. Just saw all these pretty Garand's and figured I throw mine in.

Regards
Pat

View attachment 392426

Very nice!

It's certainly a tribute to John Garand's genius that his M1 bolt, receiver, and gas system can be made to run other, more potent cartridges that impart energy beyond the limited parameters of .30-06 M2 ball ammo.

This gent took an elk with his full-size M1 chambered in .35 Whelen.

The real modern contribution to JG's design which gives the M1 greater versatility to safely fire cartridges other than .308 or .30-06, and which also allows the full-size rifle to be 'chopped' (shortened and lightened) to a true 16.1" carbine length and shot without damage to the op rod or gas cylinder, is the adjustable M1 gas plug - in particular the adj. plug made by Schuster Mfg. This is the plug that Tim, owner of Shuff's Parkerizing, uses in all his Mini-G builds.

Link to the Schuster Mfg. adj. gas plug:

M1 GARAND - SCHUSTER MFG INC

www.schustermfg.com

 

[Jack Stevens]

Good Job! You are stoking my desire to get a Whelen Garand!

Just FYI, ... but in theory, as long as you can source the M1-profile barrels, any . 308- or .30-06-derivative cartridge (and a few others that aren't, like BC.Pat's 9.62) can be made to work (i.e., chamber and safely fire) with the M1 receiver, bolt, and gas system, and en bloc clips, although some cartridges may require use of an adjustable gas plug and/or some amount of judicious receiver modification in order to reliably feed larger-than-30 cal.-diameter bullets.

I've seen and handled (but not shot, unfortunately) M1s chambered for .270 Winchester, .35 Whelen (a full-size M1, the other a Mini-G), as well as one chambered in 7mm-'08.

Criterion now even offers M1-profile barrels chambered in 6.5x55 Swede. (I've got one on back-order for a future build).

Heck, once upon a time someone even 'converted' a few M1, with extensive mods, to .458 Winchester Magnum!

No doubt those were some real 'Grizzly busters'!

Even the military got interested ... a soldier-fired, 5-shot 'Bunker-Buster'!

 

[AZDAVE]

Interesting read. Time and technology basically took the COL's ideas and upgraded the concept with the gas operated rifles. When ruger built their scout rifles, I bought one and re barreled it to a 338FED. It was a very quick handling little handy rifle. I have never liked the scout scopes, due to their limited field of view so it had a 1x4 mounted in the normal location. I kept it for a while and one of the gun storre owners REALLY liked it so I traded it to him. I think the scout rifle concept of a short handy rifle that is at home on the atv, in the truck, or behind the door for personal protection is still a valid concept. Just the platform had changed and the new red dot and illuminated scopes are a much better mouse trap than the original bolt action scout scope concept.

 

[Rick HOlbert]

Interesting article but I have to disagree first learned of the Scout Rifle concept when I trained under Col. Cooper in the late 70's. Over the years I've built/owned 7 or 8 Scout rifles. I currently shoot a Steyr Scout and a retro Scout I built on a Remington 660. For 90% of my hunting I'll take my Severything. Time..
Is the Scout for everyone? No as some are wedded to conventional rifles. If it doesn't work for you then fine, no harm done. But for those who know how to run a Scout there are none better. Run its course? Hmm, the Scout Rifle has never been more popular than it is today. Sales figures from Steyr and Ruger bear this out. As for me, I'll keep my Scout and continuetoharvest game..

 

[Rick HOlbert]

Some rifle intellectual effort for your enjoyment
I wrote this for my website and Clients. Hope you enjoy my analysis.

Good day Sir,
Read your article and found it interesting. But with all due respect I have to disagree with your statement that the Scout rifle has run it's course.
Like you I trained under Col. Cooper but in the late 70's when it was still API before Gun site. That's when I was introduced to the very early Scout rifle concept. My background like yours is military. Vietnam with a LRRP unit as a NCO.
Over the years I've built/owned 7 or 8 Scout rifles. Currently shoot a Steyr Scout and an retro Scout I built on a Remington 660 in honor of Col. Cooper's early Scouts. I'm an avid shooter/hunter and hunt Africa every couple of years. Have a rather nice selection of rifles to choose from. And please don't get the impression I'm hanging out the laurels to brag on. That's not my style. Bottom line, 90% of the time I'll take my Scout to the field when it comes time to harvest game. Does the Scout work for everyone? No. If it doesn't fine. Use a rifle that works for you. But, for those who know how to run a Scout it works very well indeed.
Col. Cooper's guide lines from the 1984 Scout rifle conference were very clear. And yes times have changed since then. But the basic guide lines still hold true. Run it's course? I think not. Scout rifle concept has never been more popular than it is today. Sales figures from Steyr and Ruger bear this out.
Contrary to the fellow who opined that Col. Cooper actually envisioned the AR-10 as a Scout I can assure you he did not.
It's forums like this that I enjoy. My reply was not an attempt to denigrate your article, but rather a different prospective on a subject near and dear to me.
Have a great day sir and keep your powder dry.

 

[USMA84DAB]

Rick - thanks for being on the wall during the years I was in grade school. I was just getting old enough to remember Cronkite's propaganda effort of leading off the evening news each night with how many US Soldiers had died in Vietnam.

We would be alto better off if everyone took a turn standing guard on the wall.

The only deer I ever head-shot was with my .35WAI pseudo scout. Doe feeding at 75 yards. DRT for sure. Converted Turk Mauser. Boy is it light and handy, but not quite light enough for standards.

 

[Rick HOlbert]

And thank you for your time in uniform and your service. I had 9 years invested but got disgusted with what Carter was doing to the military. Was up for E-7 but decided to get out before getting in trouble.
That was a great article you wrote. Shows you're a thinking rifleman. I guess I'm hardheaded as I'm a follower of the Scout rifle concept. I'm headed back to Namibia May 31st. The only reason I'm not taking my Steyr is that I like hunting with classic African calibers. So this trip I'll use a 9.3X62 Mauser action Zastava M70. Shoots Swift A-Frames really good. I've been a handloader for 56 years now.
I had the pleasure of sharing my last hunt there in 2019 with my youngest daughter Annie and she made her old dad real proud! Wrote an article about it that is in the current issue of African Hunting Gazette.
Thanks for the kind words. Would enjoy talking with you again. Stay safe and watch your 6.

 

[Cousin Bongo]

USMA84DAB

Nice article and I enjoyed it thoroughly. I agree with a bunch of it but not all.

I knew Jeff Cooper well and I spent a goodly amount of time discussing the Scout rifle with him. I even took several of my Scout attempts to him for his critique/eval/input. I’ve gone back and forth with Richard (Mann) on things Scout too. Great guy, Richard.

I do have some comments that I hope you will take in a constructive light as intended:

“Field of view” - Totally understandable. Lots of people never “clicked” with the Scout scope for whatever reason. It took me a couple hundred rounds before the presto! moment. Then, it was like turning on the lights. When the Scout scope “clicks” and binocular vision kicks in, field of with a Scout scope is basically unlimited. That’s the preception, anyway, so the Scout scope field of view isn’t a big deal. The Scout scope excels in some areas and sucks in others (e.g. low light). I like that it frees the action because I like to wrap my hand around it for carry sometimes and because, unlike Jeff, I like to use stripper clips at times. (BTW, being able to use stripper clips wasn’t a reason for Jeff going with the forward mounted opticit - it wasn’t even on the radar; it turned out to be an ancillary benefit but it wasn’t one of the reasons.)

“Employ a high quality and reliable detachable magazine” - Jeff was fond of the DBM and he actually like a protruding one. However, it was not a Scout rifle requirement.

“A push feed” - Jeff didn’t stipulate push feed. He and the Scout Rifle Conferences attendees actually leaned towards controlled feed.

“The rifle should have a blind box magazine unless the expected use is for the military.” - Do you have a reference for this? I don’t remember this one. Jeff liked detachable magazines.

“Extra ammo carried on the gun - 15 rounds” Actually, the idea behind the spare ammo - usually in the buttstock and 5 or 10 rounds - is so the rifle can be grabbed in a hurry without having to worry about grabbing extra ammo or an ammo carrier.

“The rifle should have single load capability” - Granted it’s archaic but it comes in handy at times. I have no use for a cutoff, but Jeff like them. Jeff liked the “shoot one, load one” technique and a magazine cutoff makes this easier. He wrote about this on occasion.

“The rifle uses a 3-point sling” - Actually, the three attach points were not originally for a 3-point sling. They were originally for the 2-point CW sling. (CW for Carlos Widmann - I was introduced to Carlos in Guatemala when I brought Jeff and Bob Young down to train some people.) Later the Ching sling came into being and it utilized the existing 3 attach points but the 2-point CW sling was still in the picture. Also, contrary to your experience, I’ve use the sling as a shooting aid more often than not when hunting and when needing to really make shots count from field positions (vs throwing lead to keep heads down). I use a Lamb style (Viking Tactical) sling for ARs and AKs, etc. and I love it but those rifles’ roles are not general purpose. The VTAC and Vickers slings were designed as a carry straps/retention devices and they excel at those, but they don’t fare well as shooting aids.

Anyway, as I said, I agree with a lot of what you wrote. The pursuit of a “Goldilocks, or General-Purpose Rifle” is a noble one and I’m all for going ahead and rolling with whatever suites one’s fancy but one shouldn’t call their rifle a Scout unless it meets basic Scout rifle criteria. Lots of other nouns out there. Why people are so adamant on calling their non Scout a Scout totally eludes me.

CB