Status of Lion Hunting

[Cleathorn]

Hey Guys - I have been an active AH fan and supporter from its early days, so I am looking for information and not to start an endless debate. My SA PH and good friend is coming to US for show season, and via email we briefly chatted about 2014 and 2015 hunts. I got hard hit by recession and had to step back from hunting Africa for awhile. Things are getting better so we discussed a female lion to finish a diorama I was working on, and he mentioned again some controversy about lion hunts (again). This seems like an annual thing, but he said this time the US is looking at an ESA listing. As I recall, CITES is not meeting again in this issue for awhile.

Is there really anything to this? Is this just an RSA issue, a "wild stock" issue, or more US do-gooders thing?

I'll talk to my guy when he gets here in a few weeks, but some informed background on this would be helpful - and AH was always an excellent information resource. Again, not trolling, been on AH since way back, so looking for the same wisdom that has long been the backbone of AH. Thanks everyone.

As an aside, the Tipping Guide post is still number 1? That is awesome, and one of the best hunting treads an message board has ever seen. Jerome - you the man

 

[BRICKBURN]

Not a CITES issue.
A home made concern in the USA! Home of the African Lion.

http://www.africahunting.com/hunting-africa/11169-us-closing-lions.html

http://www.africahunting.com/hunting-africa/9522-more-bad-news-now-us-thinking-about-african-lion-being-added-endangered-list.html

Species Profile for African lion (Panthera leo ssp. leo)

Search anything to do with this and you should find some interesting reading:
ESA status review of African lion, 77 FR 70727, Nov. 27, 2012 (Docket FWS-R9-ES-2012-0025; 450 0030115)

 

[enysse]

No problems right now, but I would go ASAP, don't put if off an think the door will remain open forever. The lion window of opportunity will likely close at some point.

 

[daved]

The lion debate for WILD LION has been won with sound scientific proof. This will however come up again at the next CITES meeting in South Africa.

South African lions are 95% captive bred and released onto hunting ranches for hunting. PHASA ( Professional Hunters Association of South Africa) members have ascribed to the SAPA code of conduct ( South African Predator breeders Association ) where minimum of 7 days release period and 1000ha hunting area be implemented for hunting Ranch lions.

The only real issues are the sizes of the hunting areas and the sales pitch. By South African Law they need to be marketed as Captive Bred Ranch Cats. NOT CATTLE RAIDERS FROM BOTSWANA etc etc.

Make sure your outfitter is a PHASA member and that you are hunting to SAPA standards.
If all of these are adhered to these can be very exciting hunts, trophies fully exportable to the US.
Hunting regards
Dave

 

[Diamondhitch]

CITES listings are based on the best science available at the time. ESA listings are based on politics/public opinion, do not try to make sense of them or relate them to actual CITES listings or actual species management objectives, apparently Wolverines are next on the docket??? Anti trapping agenda pushing that one no doubt since there are as many now as ever.

Get your Lion while you can.

 

[Dallasguy28]

I am looking at a lion hung like this from shingalana safaris in SA. Have any of you heard of them?

 

[daved]

No have not but SA has many outfitters.

As far as lion hunting in SA goes 95% + are ranch cats and therefore not "wild". So make sure that your outfitter is a PHASA member or similar organization in SA representing Outfitters.

PHASA has set up minimum release periods for lion and also minimum hunting areas of 1 000 ha ( 2 400acres) for the best hunting experience try get an area of 3000 ha an larger.

Also see how he markets this hunt, this will tell you all you need to know about his integrity and honesty. Many lie and say that they are "Kalahari lions" come across the border , " cattle killers " etc etc.
this type of marketing is illegal

Best of luck, if you need any other info on SA lions ( legality etc ) drop me a mail.
Regards
Dave

 

[BRICKBURN]

....

Also see how he markets this hunt, this will tell you all you need to know about his integrity and honesty. Many lie and say that they are "Kalahari lions" come across the border , " cattle killers " etc etc.
this type of marketing is illegal
.............

Great advice.
It is amazing to me how much of the "marketing" I run into.

 

[Bwannabe]

CITES is not always based on scientific studies. Cheetha in Namibia is one instance. Bobcats and otter in the USA are another. Maybe years ago it was needed to help know the numbers of species but once on the list animals seldom are removed from any list.

ESA, the American Alligator is one example.

I was at the Wichita KS Zoo a couple years back and here is this sign about stop lion hunting in RSA, etc. Well the facts were 100% wrong.

Another is the Jaguar in South America, I see the cats hunted year round and yet you cannot bring one in the the USA.

Polar bears are another. YOu can still hunt them in Canada, but you cannot bring the hide or product back to the USA.

That is exactly why I am goign for a lioness this year. May never get another chance!! and with the idiot anti hunters acting only on emotion, we could loose the chance to bring one to the USA soon.

 

[Diamondhitch]

CITES is not always based on scientific studies. Cheetha in Namibia is one instance. Bobcats and otter in the USA are another. Maybe years ago it was needed to help know the numbers of species but once on the list animals seldom are removed from any list.

Cheetah is actually not a CITES problem, it too is an ESA problem. There are exportable quotas available to other countries like Canada.
All cats are CITES II not because the numbers are low but cats in general are considered a species of concern, simply meaning they want to monitor consumption. They require a permit but there are no quotas involved on any species that are not at risk of over consumption.

 

[daved]

Cheetah is actually not a CITES problem, it too is an ESA problem. There are exportable quotas available to other countries like Canada.
All cats are CITES II not because the numbers are low but cats in general are considered a species of concern, simply meaning they want to monitor consumption. They require a permit but there are no quotas involved on any species that are not at risk of over consumption.

Is this why USFW puts their OWN IMPORT BANS on brown hyaena, cheetah etc, we give legitimate export permits which they don't recognize ? You can send it anywhere in the world except to the US

 

[Diamondhitch]

Is this why USFW puts their OWN IMPORT BANS on brown hyaena, cheetah etc, we give legitimate export permits which they don't recognize ? You can send it anywhere in the world except to the US

You bet. The US is a CITES partner country but they also have their own ESA (endangered species act) which seems to be governed more by public opinion than science.

 

[BRICKBURN]

You bet. The US is a CITES partner country but they also have their own ESA (endangered species act) which seems to be governed more by public opinion than science.

EXACTLY!

They tried to get Polar Bears uplisted and were shut down with long argument.
At least CITES does run on science and not a public opinion poll of a bureaucrat hiding in the dark.

 

[Diamondhitch]

EXACTLY!

They tried to get Polar Bears uplisted and were shut down with long argument.
At least CITES does run on science and not a public opinion poll of a bureaucrat hiding in the dark.

Don't get me started with the Polar Bear "issue". ESA is a Wolf (pun intended) in sheeps clothing, simply there to push non-consumptive agendas.